Off grid solar

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ammklq143

Senior Member
Location
Iowa
Occupation
Electrician
Has anyone had any experience with solar powered homes that are completely off grid? I have a customer that's building a home and he wants to be off the grid. I've installed solar but never any that didn't use any utility power. I could sure use some input on this if anyone has any ideas.

Thank you!
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Tesla powerwall can have problems operating totally off grid because of software updates that require network connectivity and some operations that temporarily require grid power.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Has anyone had any experience with solar powered homes that are completely off grid? I have a customer that's building a home and he wants to be off the grid. I've installed solar but never any that didn't use any utility power. I could sure use some input on this if anyone has any ideas.

Thank you!
If your customer has ready access to the electrical grid it would not be in his economic best interest to operate completely off the grid. Prices for solar equipment and batteries have come down over the past few years, but off grid energy is still several times as expensive as grid power. Living off the electrical grid also requires a lot of control and understanding of the equipment and energy usage by the homeowner. It is by no means "set it and forget it".

In a former position I used to occasionally man a booth at solar trade shows, and I would ask walkups what they wanted to do with a PV system. They often would reply that they wanted to "get off the grid" and "stick it to the man", but when I would run a few numbers with them they realized that rather than sticking it to the man they would be sticking it to themselves.

If there is grid power available where your customer is building his home, a better use of his money would be to have a grid tied PV system, with battery backup if the grid is not completely reliable. Another word of caution: if you would be the one designing and installing an off grid PV system for your customer you had better know what you are doing and be prepared for service calls in perpetuity if your customer does not thoroughly understand how the system works. We have been burned a few times this way, to the point where we do not do off grid systems at all any more.
 

tepalia02

Member
Location
Dhaka
Occupation
Engineer
Here is a quite detailed video regarding off grid solar system installation:

Keeping all the other answers in mind, I suggest you to talk to your client regarding the disadvantages of off-grid solar systems.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
It seems like a Sol Ark inverter and your favorite LFP DC battery units (say, Fortune or Simpliphi) are becoming the favorite way to do off-grid.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I have worked on a few residential projects with off-grid. We didn't install the PV or storage, just took the hand off from the inverters.

The last project was the most impressive. 40+ KW of LG PV panels feeding (2) 3 phase 480V inverters. The storage was a Tesla Power Pack and its inverter. The PV inverters and Power Pack inverter were combined in a 600 amp panleboard. We took the 480 supply from the panelboard to a 480/277Y to 208/120Y transformer and fed multiple 208/120Y panels throughout the home.

Previous projects were just racks of batteries feeding Outback inverters.
 

caribconsult

Senior Member
Location
Añasco, Puerto Rico
Occupation
Retired computer consultant
We have a full 5Kw Tesla system and we are off-grid about 99.99% of the time. Our house is energy efficient, and in Puerto Rico, we have lots of sun, so we live in the PV array during the day and the battery at night. A normal day of sunlight will fully charge the battery and we're good till the next day and hopefully there's sun. Of course, there are days when there's little to no sun, and it's hard to live on the sun if there isn't any, so on those days, I open the grid feed into the gateway, it runs the house and charges the battery and it might use 2-3Kwh from the grid. I can also go direct to the grid and bypass the Tesla if the electric dryer is in use. Our electric bill might be around $15/mon. No, we don't have net metering and don't want it.
 

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
We have a full 5Kw Tesla system and we are off-grid about 99.99% of the time. Our house is energy efficient, and in Puerto Rico, we have lots of sun, so we live in the PV array during the day and the battery at night. A normal day of sunlight will fully charge the battery and we're good till the next day and hopefully there's sun. Of course, there are days when there's little to no sun, and it's hard to live on the sun if there isn't any, so on those days, I open the grid feed into the gateway, it runs the house and charges the battery and it might use 2-3Kwh from the grid. I can also go direct to the grid and bypass the Tesla if the electric dryer is in use. Our electric bill might be around $15/mon. No, we don't have net metering and don't want it.

A $15 electric bill means that the fixed connection charge is absurdly low.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
A $15 electric bill means that the fixed connection charge is absurdly low.
They are so heavily subsidized and kept afloat by the US because of their practice of providing free power for years for about everyone except residences.
Of course, a $4-$5 service fee monthly is ridiculously low, even for a poverty stricken country.
 

caribconsult

Senior Member
Location
Añasco, Puerto Rico
Occupation
Retired computer consultant
Yes, the fixed connection charge is pretty low, perhaps $4-7, but there are massive add-ons for fuel surcharges, so the the bottom line turns out you are paying almost $0.31/Kwh, a pretty stiff rate. Businesses pay a higher rate, and it's true, a lot of juice gets given away to the various towns to turn on the lights at a stadium even though there's no game, or someother semi-civic thing, like there was an ice rink here a few years ago...can you imagine what their electric bill was to maintain ice in this tropic environment? Don't know if they paid for it or it was given free. Gone now. The real issue with the local utility, called LUMA, is their totally fragile infrastructure, which can dissolve at a moment's notice, in a lot of places all over the island. Almost all of it is exposed to severe weather, the lines are old and poorly maintained, damage from previous storms is still seen in many places, and their generation equipment is old school oil fired and uses the cheapest oil they can find. Pretty poorly administered. They should have begun a program to bury critical parts but didn't.
 

Joe.B

Senior Member
Location
Myrtletown Ca
Occupation
Building Inspector
I saw an off grid home built here, only 5 minutes from town but PG&E was going to charge him $50,000 to bring power to his lot. He got panels, an inverter, battery, and a generator for half that. Agreed that if you've got access to the grid, use it. If not though, it's doable.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I saw an off grid home built here, only 5 minutes from town but PG&E was going to charge him $50,000 to bring power to his lot. He got panels, an inverter, battery, and a generator for half that. Agreed that if you've got access to the grid, use it. If not though, it's doable.
Of course it is doable, but as a designer of PV systems I do not want any part of off grid PV. We used to do them occasionally, but the perpetual service calls after installation drove our off grid guy crazy. When he left the company we stopped dealing with off grid completely. He set up his own company that only does off grid; he is welcome to all that business.

Off grid PV requires that both the provider AND the customer have a deep understanding of how it all works and how to keep it working. I have seen situations where neither of those were true and it was a nightmare for everyone involved.
 
I saw an off grid home built here, only 5 minutes from town but PG&E was going to charge him $50,000 to bring power to his lot. He got panels, an inverter, battery, and a generator for half that. Agreed that if you've got access to the grid, use it. If not though, it's doable.
$50,000 doesn't really seem bad to me, I think they would have been better off in the long run paying that and getting grid power. 25k more for a lifetime of convenience and no off grid stress and hassle, no battery replacements every 10 years, and probably big increase in the property value, no brainer to me.
 

caribconsult

Senior Member
Location
Añasco, Puerto Rico
Occupation
Retired computer consultant
There was already grid service at our house when we got it. I just sat with the electrician in charge of the Tesla installation and told him all different ways I wanted to be able to power the house, whether it was the PV array, the battery, the grid or our gas generator, if it was down to that....all it needed was a few switches and breakers. He got it exactly right.
 

caribconsult

Senior Member
Location
Añasco, Puerto Rico
Occupation
Retired computer consultant
Off grid PV requires that both the provider AND the customer have a deep understanding of how it all works and how to keep it working. I have seen situations where neither of those were true and it was a nightmare for everyone involved.
Hit the nail right on the head. Off grid is doable if you are willing to learn about the idiosyncrasies of solar and how and when to use the grid.
 

caribconsult

Senior Member
Location
Añasco, Puerto Rico
Occupation
Retired computer consultant
Let me see if I can clarify some of the points made here. Basically, there are two different ways to use a Tesla (or any PV brand) system: (1) you can stay on the grid and use the Tesla to backup the grid if it goes down, or (2) you can fake an outage and trick the Tesla into taking over and use the grid to back up the Tesla if there's not enough sun. Several Tesla reps and engineers say this is perfectly within design spec. We choose (2) because you won't save much via (1), since you are still using the grid for daily use, plus we like being disconnected from the grid because of how erratic the voltage is and the various jolts that come up the line, frying lots of stuff. The Tesla system can be setup so you can use either method, whichever works best for you. It requires a breaker that cuts the grid off from the gateway grid input, so if we open that breaker, the gateway thinks there's an outage, and we are now running on the Tesla and 99.99% of the time we get enough sunlight to fully charge the battery by 1-2pm or so, then run on the panels until sundown and then the battery takes over. The Tesla does this automatically. Wash, rinse, repeat.

So practically no grid is used and our bill is very low. If we want to switch over to method (1), all we have to do is close this breaker, now the grid is flowing into the gateway, the house is generally drawing from the grid, and the battery will charge up using the grid or the panels if you have some sun and be ready for the next outage. If the grid goes down, the Tesla goes on automatically. If everything fails, with one big switch I can put the whole house directly on the grid, bypassing the Tesla (but it's still running) or even plug in my generator, if it comes to that (another switch needed...def not a big deal) We also put the whole house on the grid if we want to do some welding or run the electric clothes dryer, but only for that. Since you are essentially running on the grid using (1), expect close to your normal bill. I haven't seen or heard of a residential setup using a single battery that I would prefer. We always have power. That's not that common here in Puerto Rico...the utility company is very borderline, their equipment is ancient and poorly maintained, and not everyone here even has a generator, much less solar. A gen should be considered a mandatory minimum to live here unless you don't mind cleaning out a fridge full of rotten food or throwing out food or meds, etc, no lights, TV, cell charging, etc.

As has been pointed out previously by ggun, method (2) requires a bit more understanding of how your system works and how to interpret the data from the app, which will tell you practically everything you need to know, including when to close the grid breaker if needed, etc. But you'll get a lot more benefit from your solar system the more you know how it functions. It's worth the time learning a bit about it.
 
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Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Hit the nail right on the head. Off grid is doable if you are willing to learn about the idiosyncrasies of solar and how and when to use the grid.
If you’re using the grid then you aren’t “off grid”
That would be more of a hybrid application.
 
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