old subpanel upgrade.

[Charlie Bob]

This is what I'm dealing with:

An old gym, they have a concession stand, this past weekend they blew fuses like crazy. I went there and found this set up.
60 amp 120/240 subpanel with main and range and 4 plug fuses.
This is fed from a main panel (3 phase 120/208v) by an old AL 3 wire cable. OCPD at main is not marked, so i'm assuming is a 60 amp breaker.

They need more circuits to provide for the electrical demand for a series of appliances.
At this moment all 4 fuses are occupied with 4 different circuits.
I need a bigger panel with more circuits, i will need at least 5 or 6 120v circuits and a 240v for a Range.

I thought about putting a 100 amp subpanel right where this subpanel is, so in that case I won't have to run new feeder, eliminating cost and making customer happy.(Of course he wants this as cheap as possible)

My questions are:

1- As long as i leave the same OCPD at the main protecting the AL wires it wouldn't matter to use a 100 amp subpanel, Right?

2- How would you provide the 240 v for the range out of this subpanel with 208v going in? ( I suppose with a transformer, what kind?, what kind of hook-up?)

3-Is it illegal to use a 120/240v subpanel if i have 208v from the main panel?

Thank you all.

 

[kwired]

range will work just fine it will just use less wattage than if it were 240 volt - will take longer to get the same amount of heat.

100 amp panel is fine on 60 amp feeder, but sounds like you may be loaded enough that you may want to consider increasing the feeder.

your 3 wire cable is not acceptable however because your equipment ground and neutral must be separated.

 

[Charlie Bob]

but sounds like you may be loaded enough that you may want to consider increasing the feeder.[/QUOTE]

I know ,I will advise him to go that route but I don't think he"ll go for it.
I will just have to make sure the load will be within limits.

 

[mivey]

but sounds like you may be loaded enough that you may want to consider increasing the feeder.

I know ,I will advise him to go that route but I don't think he"ll go for it.
I will just have to make sure the load will be within limits.

He might have to make some.....concessions.

 

[kwired]

but sounds like you may be loaded enough that you may want to consider increasing the feeder.

I know ,I will advise him to go that route but I don't think he"ll go for it.
I will just have to make sure the load will be within limits.[/QUOTE]

you still have not solved the separate ground and neutral issue.

 

[Charlie Bob]

I know ,I will advise him to go that route but I don't think he"ll go for it.
I will just have to make sure the load will be within limits.

you still have not solved the separate ground and neutral issue.[/QUOTE]

Iknow kwired, but is an existing installation, i'm gonna check with inspector to see what he says.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

What you have is preexisting nonconforming and I'll bet any "improvements" you attempt to make are going not going to pass muster. Leave it alone and install another sub or don't touch it at all.

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

I believe you should upgrade the panel, feeders and install new circuits . If they want to upgrade this kitchen, electrical is the most important on a safety factor its a school if anything goes wrong your name will be on this . I know your trying to save them money but I just dont see anyway around it . All that can be done if they dont want to do it wright is to show them what they can use with the system they have .

 

[LarryFine]

He might have to make some.....concessions.

Boo! Hiss! grin

 

[CopperTone]

give the guy a price to fix it correctly - upsize the wire, conduit, proper amount of wires, breaker size, etc - it's not your problem if he doesn't go for it.

As a matter of fact I would up front tell the guy what needs to be done before you get into a quote and waste your time - if he doesn't want to go that route - move on. why put your name on that mess? Sounds like a headache already.

You are the professional that knows how to do it right and do electrical work for a living - you are not his buddy trying to help him out - are you?

 

[Charlie Bob]

you guys are right, i'll upgrade the whole thing.(new subpanel, new feeder, new circuits, etc.)
I told him that today.He agreed.
I'm bringing the inspector in this one too.