Old work scenario - how would you handle it?

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bjp_ne_elec

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Because I'm new to old work - vast experience on new installs. both commercial and residential - I'm seeing how you guys would handle this situation.

Two gang box in living room - old romex with undersized ground on all but one of four romex coming in to box. One is feed, one is three way, one is feeding off to other parts of circuit - fourth romex is going back down to basement, as it was intended to be switch leg to lamp post (finally to be installed by me). This fourth romex has no ground wire at all - and this is not good - as this is one intended to run to new lamp post.

This "fourth romex" comes in to bottom of box, in to metal two gang box, and my desire it to get it replaced with a 14/3 - so I can bring the feed up in a new circuit (so I have EGC) and one conductor in the 14/3 would be the switched leg out to light. Now the challange - and of course the living room has paint "that's tough to match" - so the customer in no way wants me cutting in to sheet rock. Now the present romex (with new EGC) is most likely stapled, and then it also has a metal romex connector - so even if it was un-stapled, I can't use the existing to pull in a new one - as what am I going to do with the connector.

So how would you handle it? I'm sure there are going to be some neat "tricks" that I haven't considered. I've got what would be my approach, but I'll save it, and share it later. Keep in mind, my main concern is to get a EGC in the switched leg that runs out to the lamp post. It's in the UF that goes out to the post, and is already roughed in to a JB in the basement.

Thanks,

Brett

Thanks,

Brett
 
I would carefully remove that old steel box doing no damage to the drywall, get my hand in the wall and remove the staple near the box, if you are lucky that is the only staple if not you don't use that wire as a fish wire, if you're lucky it is your fish wire. either way it is not to difficult to get your new wire in, then simply use a two gang cut-in box to replace the old metal box you removed, most likely you will need to make the hole a little bigger. This is a pretty simple job.
 
bjp_ne_elec said:
Because I'm new to old work - vast experience on new installs. both commercial and residential - I'm seeing how you guys would handle this situation....
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I'd pop out the existing metal box, get a plastic old-work box, fish the new cable up to it, and pop the new box into the wall. The ungrounded NM that you're bypassing can be cut and stay in the stud space.

The devil's in the details, but with a little care you should be able to get the old box out. Once that's done, you're home free.

Good luck,
 
i agree with the other 2 posts, but here is a little trick to make life easier. Before you remove the existing box, take a new 2g plastic old-work and check the size of the existing hole. If you need to make the hole bigger, do it before you pull out the existing metal box. This will give you a little extra room to help avoid damaging the wall. Then get a screwdriver between the wall and the box and pry it out a litte. Just enough to get a pair of diagonals in to cut the nails.

should be able to do it with no damage to the wall.
 
We use the same methods already mentioned. Sometimes we use a hacksaw blade to cut the nails or shear cutters to cut the box brackets. Once the old box is out we would abandone the old romex and fish in a new one (fiberglass fish rods, flexible long bits etc). As for the new box we have started using Arlington's new 'F' series which has screws premounted on the inside of the box for attaching to the stud.

Knowing what to do is half the battle, the other half is in the experience gained by making mistakes and paying to fix 'em.
 
You guys like doing things the hard way.

I'd simply bring a new feed with a ground to the junction box where the UF starts, and use the existing 2-conductor cable as a switch loop, up on the white and back on the black.

You don't need a new neutral brought to the existing 2-gang box.
 
From your description, I have to make two assumptions:
  1. The dwelling was built in the '60s.
  2. The switch bank is at the door to the front porch, in an insulated wall on top of the basement concrete wall.
Using the existing NM without ground as a pull wire is an exercise in futility, IMO.

If drilling up into the wall cavity is impossible because of finishing, framing and/or masonry details, cutting in an outside outlet placed right at the bottom wall plate will permit drilling down through the plate and shoving a fish tape.

Cubic inch requirements almost always make the old box overstuffed, so, changing out the wall case is almost always a given, and, besides, it eases a lot of the installation.
 
LarryFine said:
You don't need a new neutral brought to the existing 2-gang box.
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Interesting point, Larry.

The new circuit would only provide for the yard light.

However, if Brett wants to break off the load connected to the feed at the switch bank, and supply it by the new circuit, then the neutral would be needed.

Except for the exception that would allow notches cut between holes in magnetic boxes and then placing the OCPD to make the new circuit a multiwire branch circuit with the existing circuit feeding the switches.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Interesting point, Larry.

The new circuit would only provide for the yard light.

However, if Brett wants to break off the load connected to the feed at the switch bank, and supply it by the new circuit, then the neutral would be needed.
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The switch does not need a neutral.

I'm suggesting isolating the switch from everything else in the box, and connecting only the ungrounded 14-2 to the switch, hot in on the white and leg out on the black.

Another option would be to simply bring a ground wire from any convenient point in the crawlspace to the junction box where the UF originates.
 
Hmm... I think that I would do the same as Mr. Fine. If all he is looking for is a control for the post light, then using the 2 wire as a switch loop is more easier than trying to fish a new wire up the wall. The wire is all ready there. Trying to fish another wire may be more of a problem especially if there is blocking in the wall that may prevent you from getting the wire up to the box. Just a thought.
 
Larry - really like you're suggestion. Could the inspector have an issue with using the existing wire, seeing there is not ground in it - but the switched leg out to the light would have an EGC. I'm just making sure the inspector couldn't site this as a violation - but it is existing, even though it was never connected for it's intent.

Larry - one question - to your point about running a ground wire - can that ground be fished up the wall as a stand alone conductor, or does it have to be integral to a new piece of NM?

Al - I'm not really following your last sentence in your first post - "Except for the exception that would allow notches cut between holes in magnetic boxes and then placing the OCPD to make the new circuit a multiwire branch circuit with the existing circuit feeding the switches." Could you elaborate a little more. Magnetic boxes - just using another term for metal box - of which the 2-gand switch box is? Why are you "cutting notches in between holes"?

Thanks,

Brett
 
bjp_ne_elec said:
Larry - really like you're suggestion. Could the inspector have an issue with using the existing wire, seeing there is not ground in it - but the switched leg out to the light would have an EGC. I'm just making sure the inspector couldn't site this as a violation - but it is existing, even though it was never connected for it's intent.
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First of all, I doubt an inspector would look that closely inside this box. Don't go out of your way to point it out to him, of course. I don't recall a requirement that every cable have a ground wire in it, just that metallic boxes be grounded; yours is.
Larry - one question - to your point about running a ground wire - can that ground be fished up the wall as a stand alone conductor, or does it have to be integral to a new piece of NM?
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I'm not suggesting any fishing at all, or adding anything to the existing box. You mentioned that there are already grounds in the box. That they are reduced in size is not relevant: they were legal at the time of installation. You can re-use it.
 
I'm with Larry,
Seperate EGC to switch box is allowed.
Tip for more room in the Switch box if you want or need to change it out is to use a new 2G Nail on. cut off the nail supports & use it as a pop-in box, screw it to the stud with drywall screws. My inspectors buy this all the time.
 
77401 said:
I'm with Larry,
Seperate EGC to switch box is allowed.
Tip for more room in the Switch box if you want or need to change it out is to use a new 2G Nail on. cut off the nail supports & use it as a pop-in box, screw it to the stud with drywall screws. My inspectors buy this all the time.
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1) The existing box is already grounded. Nothing needs to be fished.

2) I'd rather use a 2-gang old-work-box if I needed to, but why here?
 
I'm with Larry, just reconfig the 14/2 for a Switch leg and leave everything else. The existing premise wiring was approved at the time and you have no need to change it.

Satcom, I googled "X10 switch" and I think that it is pretty cool stuff! Thanks !
 
I love X10 and use it all the time, but I would always prefer a conventional solution to problems like these. For problem solving, X10 is a last resort.
 
As I was reading the thread, I was thinking exactly what Larry posted. Of course, I was also thinking "am I missing something, why hasn't anyone suggested this yet?"
 
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