One service, Two Panels?

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kwilliams

Member
Location
Indiana
I have a home I am wiring and it will be served by one 400A. meterbase. I have two 200A. panels in the house, my question is do you run a ground wire and ground rod for each panel or use one ground rod and bond both ground wires to that ground rod?

[ April 10, 2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: kwilliams ]
 

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: One service, Two Panels?

There should not be two ground electrode conductors from the panels to the rods.
 

roger deas

Member
Location
North_Carolina
Re: One service, Two Panels?

kwilliams, a couple of quick question.

#1 Does your POCO allow you to make GEC connection in the meter?

#2 Where are these two panels located in relation (how far away from) to the meter location?


Regarding # 2, if these panels are not located at a close proximity to the meter, it/they would need to fed from an exterior disconnect/s, and the GEC connection could be there.

Roger

[ April 04, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: roger deas ]
 

kwilliams

Member
Location
Indiana
Re: One service, Two Panels?

I work for the POCO and no we do not allow the panels to be landed in the meter base. As for the other question the panels are directly behind the meter base inside the house. I was told that most people around here run a seperate ground rod and ground wire from each panel.
 

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: One service, Two Panels?

Separate conductors create two ground electrode systems.

Bonding can not be performed at the top, it must be between rod connections.
 

kwilliams

Member
Location
Indiana
Re: One service, Two Panels?

These panels re side by side, So would you use one ground rod and run one ground wire from the first panel to the rod and attach the second ground wire from the second panel to the first one by a compression connector, or run both wires out to the same ground rod? Thanks for your help I dont do much of this anymore this is one of those help a buddie save some money jobs.
 

roger deas

Member
Location
North_Carolina
Re: One service, Two Panels?

Kwilliams, you can drive one ground rod, then run the Grounding Electrode Conductor in to either panel. From this panel simply jumper to the next panel.

Roger
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
Re: One service, Two Panels?

Originally posted by kwilliams:
These panels re side by side, So would you use one ground rod and run one ground wire from the first panel to the rod and attach the second ground wire from the second panel to the first one by a compression connector, or run both wires out to the same ground rod? Thanks for your help I don't do much of this anymore this is one of those help a buddy save some money jobs.
You run one Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) from the bonded buss bar of either panel to the first ground rod, through the acorn clamp and on to the second ground rod. Unless the single rod can be shown to have an impedance to ground of 25 ohms or less the second rod is required. You then run a tap conductor from any convenient point of the GEC to the bonded buss bar of the other panel. The tap is connected to the GEC by a split bolt connector or a saddle clamp that does not break the continuity of the GEC. The tap conductor connection does not have to be irreversible. Are these two ground rods the only grounding electrode for your home?
--
Tom

250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
Grounding electrode conductors shall be installed as specified in 250.64(A) through (F).
(D) Grounding Electrode Conductor Taps. Where a service consists of more than a single enclosure as permitted in 230.40, Exception No. 2, it shall be permitted to connect taps to the grounding electrode conductor. Each such tap conductor shall extend to the inside of each such enclosure. The grounding electrode conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.66, but the tap conductors shall be permitted to be sized in accordance with the grounding electrode conductors specified in 250.66 for the largest conductor serving the respective enclosures. The tap conductors shall be connected to the grounding electrode conductor in such a manner that the grounding electrode conductor remains without a splice.
 

wocolt

Member
Location
Ohio
Re: One service, Two Panels?

This can be done. But the meter base must have parallel lugs.
One set of ground rods, the way, we are allowed to do it, is first panel is bonded to the second, from the second to the ground rods and water pipe.
or 1/0 for the bonding and GEC and No. 6 to the ground rods.

WOC
 

sparkmantoo

Member
Location
Virginia
Re: One service, Two Panels?

so what happens when you got two outside fusible disconnects that feed two panels,(230.40 Ex.#2) with seperate sets of service entrance conductors from the meterbase. is the GEC that goes to water pipe sized by the total kcmil of the largest ungrounded conductor (Tbl 250.66) or do you size it to only the size of the service entrance conductor for each disconnect (Tbl 250.66 Note 1)?
imo i would run one from the first disconnect to the second and that size would be sized to one set and from the second disconnect to the water pipe i would size it as a total of both. (250.64d) is this correct?
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
Re: One service, Two Panels?

Originally posted by sparkmantoo:
So what happens when you got two outside fusible disconnects that feed two panels, (230.40 Ex.#2) with separate sets of service entrance conductors from the meter base. is the GEC that goes to water pipe sized by the total kcmil of the largest ungrounded conductor (Tbl 250.66) or do you size it to only the size of the service entrance conductor for each disconnect (Tbl 250.66 Note 1)?
imo i would run one from the first disconnect to the second and that size would be sized to one set and from the second disconnect to the water pipe i would size it as a total of both. (250.64d) is this correct?
I believe that the approach you outline is the correct one. You run one GEC to the largest disconnect that is sized for the equivalent area of the separate sets of service conductors. You then run taps from each of the other disconnect enclosures, that are sized for the service conductors that supply each disconnect, to the GEC. The only place I might part company is that the GEC itself need not be larger than the size required for the conductors between the service drop or lateral and the meters line terminals. Keep in mind that the conductors between the meter and the individual disconnect enclosures are based on the size of the disconnects that they supply and the size of the conductors on the line side of the meter are based on the computed load. Since the code specifically permits the separate sets of overcurrent protection to add up to more than the ampacity of the conductors on the line side of the meter the equivalent area of the load side conductors may be greater than the actual area of the conductors that carry the entire load to the meter. That is why I said that the conductors on the meters line side are the service entry conductors and the conductors on the meters load side are in reality service entry tap conductors.
--
Tom
 

sparkmantoo

Member
Location
Virginia
Re: One service, Two Panels?

where i do electrical work, the line side of the meter base is the utility companies responsibility and to size it by their wires could cause me to undersize my gec's. they pull their lateralls according to what they feel is adequate to supply the load that i calculated. in all cases, it is always not what we would pull to adequately supply the load. i think their calculations deal more with demand than calculated load. i would rather be to big than not big enough. but you did make an excellant point, one that i need to research a little futher
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
Re: One service, Two Panels?

Originally posted by sparkmantoo:
where i do electrical work, the line side of the meter base is the utility companies responsibility and to size it by their wires could cause me to undersize my GECs. they pull their laterals according to what they feel is adequate to supply the load that i calculated. in all cases, it is always not what we would pull to adequately supply the load. i think their calculations deal more with demand than calculated load. i would rather be to big than not big enough. but you did make an excellent point, one that i need to research a little further.
Your point is well taken. When the lateral extends to the line terminals of the meter enclosure or CT cabinet there are no common service entry conductors and you would size the GEC by the equivalent area of the multiple conductors on the load side of the meter. In those installations were there is a demarcation point on the line side of the meter then the size of the conductors between that demarcation point and the meters line terminals would govern the size of the GEC. The demarcation points that are written into many state public utility tariffs are the splices between the drip loops of the service entry conductors and the service drop, or the splices that are made in the property line hand hole or the underground lateral terminal box between the service lateral conductors and the service entry conductors. Terminal boxes are used at the point were individual type USE service lateral conductors enter a building and type SE cable or raceway is used to carry the current to the line terminals of a meter enclosure or CT cabinet.
--
Tom

[ April 11, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: hornetd ]
 
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