tonype
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Maybe a dopey question, but are there any code references on wiring only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker (is it ok to wire only 1 pole)?
Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
- Thread starter tonype
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
Yes, you can use only one pole of a 2 or 3 pole CB.
Yes, you can use only one pole of a 2 or 3 pole CB.
tonype
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
Infinity: Do you need to ID the breaker in any manner? Also, are there any safeguards to prevent a HO from looking in and thinking that this is an expansion slot?
Infinity: Do you need to ID the breaker in any manner? Also, are there any safeguards to prevent a HO from looking in and thinking that this is an expansion slot?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
As a general NEC rule all CB's must be labeled. You could label one pole for it's intended use and label the other pole as a spare. You lost me on the expansion slot thing.
As a general NEC rule all CB's must be labeled. You could label one pole for it's intended use and label the other pole as a spare. You lost me on the expansion slot thing.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
I've never seen a panel with expansion slots. My computer has a few, but I've never seen a panel with even one.
tonype
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
Maybe I do not have the lingo correct (I am a home inspector/engineer always looking to improve myself via this forum) - what I was trying to say is that a HO could be adding a circuit and view the unused pole as a convenient place to power the wire. Wouldn't this result in two separate circuits being protected by one breaker that has a handle tie connecting the poles? Or am I looking too far into this?
Maybe I do not have the lingo correct (I am a home inspector/engineer always looking to improve myself via this forum) - what I was trying to say is that a HO could be adding a circuit and view the unused pole as a convenient place to power the wire. Wouldn't this result in two separate circuits being protected by one breaker that has a handle tie connecting the poles? Or am I looking too far into this?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
As a mater of fact in some instances it is required.
This would be code compliant also. There is no code reason you could not have a two pole breaker protecting two entirely different circuits.
As a mater of fact in some instances it is required.
tonype
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
To everyone - thanks for the fast replies (as always)and help!
To everyone - thanks for the fast replies (as always)and help!
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
edit: Please include NEC article
[ October 25, 2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: milwaukeesteve ]
Could I please have an example of this? I am very interested in seeing that.
edit: Please include NEC article
[ October 25, 2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: milwaukeesteve ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
2002 NEC
Notice this section is not about multiwire branch circuits.
By the way in 2005 the rules have changed and moved but are still there.
[ October 25, 2005, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
2002 NEC
Notice this section is not about multiwire branch circuits.
Of course this could be accomplished with the properly listed two pole switch but using a two pole breaker or two single pole breakers with handle ties would be easer.
By the way in 2005 the rules have changed and moved but are still there.
[ October 25, 2005, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
Bob, I believe I have heard this argument before, but nothing is being said.
First, in this code rule it says a means to simultaneously disconnect ... shall be provided.. at the panelboard where the branch circuits originate.
Where does it say that it is legal to install a double pole breaker for this installation in this code rule?
Where also does it say that a double pole switch can be used if you need to simultaneously disconnect where the circuit originates?
Where is the manufacturer rating that identifies the double pole breaker for use with 2 individual circuits?
For that matter, where is the manufacturer rating for double pole breakers to be used for individual single circuits (using only 1 of 2 poles)?
Bob, I believe I have heard this argument before, but nothing is being said.
First, in this code rule it says a means to simultaneously disconnect ... shall be provided.. at the panelboard where the branch circuits originate.
Where does it say that it is legal to install a double pole breaker for this installation in this code rule?
Where also does it say that a double pole switch can be used if you need to simultaneously disconnect where the circuit originates?
Where is the manufacturer rating that identifies the double pole breaker for use with 2 individual circuits?
For that matter, where is the manufacturer rating for double pole breakers to be used for individual single circuits (using only 1 of 2 poles)?
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
means to simultaneously disconnect is not the same as internal/common trip breaker
means to simultaneously disconnect is not the same as internal/common trip breaker
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
I know you hate it but the NEC is a permissive code, if it does not say you can not.....you can.
Steve you must accept that, it is a fact.
Just curious how you would do it if you rule out a double pole breaker or a two pole switch?
Where is the info that prohibits either of those scenarios?
I know you hate it but the NEC is a permissive code, if it does not say you can not.....you can.
Steve you must accept that, it is a fact.
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
Manufacturer listed handle ties are a 'provide means to simultaneously disconnect'.
This code section is not asking for 'automatic' trip. It only requires that a means for disconnecting be provided.
Your idea of a 2 pole switch can't work because it says where the circuit originates.
I believe that this code rule is specifically looking for handles from separate breakers to be 'tied' together. Especially from the way the rule is worded 'a means.. shall be provided'. As in that the breakers are already there, and we need to tie them together.
We can go round and round about the permissive code issue. My argument is that we push that permissive issue too far. We take wording that could mean something to say that it does mean something. We say that since it didn't say someting, that I can do something.
Alot of the arguments I have had are on code rules where it specifically tells you the things you CAN do, yet when someone wants to do something else, they say that the article doesn't say CAN'T. The article isn't trying to tell you the CAN'Ts, but rather only the CANs.
Permissive code is not a blank check for you to do what ever you want.
Manufacturer listed handle ties are a 'provide means to simultaneously disconnect'.
This code section is not asking for 'automatic' trip. It only requires that a means for disconnecting be provided.
Your idea of a 2 pole switch can't work because it says where the circuit originates.
I believe that this code rule is specifically looking for handles from separate breakers to be 'tied' together. Especially from the way the rule is worded 'a means.. shall be provided'. As in that the breakers are already there, and we need to tie them together.
We can go round and round about the permissive code issue. My argument is that we push that permissive issue too far. We take wording that could mean something to say that it does mean something. We say that since it didn't say someting, that I can do something.
Alot of the arguments I have had are on code rules where it specifically tells you the things you CAN do, yet when someone wants to do something else, they say that the article doesn't say CAN'T. The article isn't trying to tell you the CAN'Ts, but rather only the CANs.
Permissive code is not a blank check for you to do what ever you want.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
That means without "pushing the code" it is up to the installer to come up with an acceptable means to a means to simultaneously disconnect the ungrounded conductors.
They carefully worded it so that you could use other means than a breaker at all. Lets say you where feeding two circuits to one yoke from a fuse panel, you would have to use a switch at the panel.
Tell me where is the code section that says I can install a panel in a kitchen, or garage or bedroom etc?
Thats right all it requires is "a means to simultaneously disconnect the ungrounded conductors supplying those receptacles" They did not specify handle ties, common trip breakers, two pole switches or even relays.
That means without "pushing the code" it is up to the installer to come up with an acceptable means to a means to simultaneously disconnect the ungrounded conductors.
Steve the requirement requires the 'means' to be at the panel not in the panel.
They carefully worded it so that you could use other means than a breaker at all. Lets say you where feeding two circuits to one yoke from a fuse panel, you would have to use a switch at the panel.
It's your right to believe that but IMO you are mistaken. If the writers specifically wanted handle ties the section would say "approved handle ties"
Actually it is just that, we can do whatever we dream up unless a code article says otherwise.
Tell me where is the code section that says I can install a panel in a kitchen, or garage or bedroom etc?
lauraj
Senior Member
- Location
- Portland, Oregon
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
Looking up some info on Square D Homeline breakers, most of their 2-pole breakers are dual rated 120/240. That would tell me that it is ok to install 2 - 120V circuits on a 2-pole breaker.
Looking up some info on Square D Homeline breakers, most of their 2-pole breakers are dual rated 120/240. That would tell me that it is ok to install 2 - 120V circuits on a 2-pole breaker.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
Actually, that means it is okay to feed line-to-line loads.
Actually, that means it is okay to feed line-to-line loads.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
Larry I think you are forgetting the 120 part of 240/120.
lauraj
Senior Member
- Location
- Portland, Oregon
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
Why wouldn't it then just be rated 240V?
Why wouldn't it then just be rated 240V?
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: Only 1 pole of a 2 pole breaker used
Actually the slash rating of 120/240V says a breaker is rated for line to line voltages of 240V but the line to ground voltage is only 120V maximum (which means it cannot be used on a 240V to ground system).
UL Listed breakers have been tested for all combinations of loads including 1P only on a 2P breaker and 1P and 2P only on 3p breakers.
Actually the slash rating of 120/240V says a breaker is rated for line to line voltages of 240V but the line to ground voltage is only 120V maximum (which means it cannot be used on a 240V to ground system).
UL Listed breakers have been tested for all combinations of loads including 1P only on a 2P breaker and 1P and 2P only on 3p breakers.
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