Opportunity or Liability

[Power Tech]

I have an opportunity to rehab many houses in southern California. Houses are wired in 2 wire romex from the 50 or 60's. The panel has no main breaker. Anybody know if it is required to bring this up to a 3 wire service and rewire the house. Or is it legal to change like with like. Do they even make polarity receptacles anymore? Should I even bid these? If someone gets hurt because there is no ground, can I be held responsible?
Thanks
Power Tech

 

[chris kennedy]

Should I even bid these?

How hungry are you?

Welcome to the Forum.

 

[satcom]

Are you sure the service is not 3 wire, most of the homes build back then had less then 6 circuits, so there was no need for a main breaker, I don't see any liability if you upgrade the service and use one of the approved methods, to replace the recpts. Sounds like some nice work, so as long as you can make a decent amount plus a good profit.

 

[qcroanoke]

I have an opportunity to rehab many houses in southern California. Houses are wired in 2 wire romex from the 50 or 60's. The panel has no main breaker. Anybody know if it is required to bring this up to a 3 wire service and rewire the house. Or is it legal to change like with like. Do they even make polarity receptacles anymore? Should I even bid these? If someone gets hurt because there is no ground, can I be held responsible?
Thanks
Power Tech

You will read this a lot here and it's good advice...
Check with the AHJ. You need to know what they require before you price it.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

You will read this a lot here and it's good advice...
Check with the AHJ. You need to know what they require before you price it.

We can all give you advice as to what to do. The only good advice is the advice provided by gcroanoke.

 

[electricmanscott]

I have an opportunity to rehab many houses in southern California. Houses are wired in 2 wire romex from the 50 or 60's. The panel has no main breaker. Anybody know if it is required to bring this up to a 3 wire service and rewire the house. Or is it legal to change like with like. Do they even make polarity receptacles anymore? Should I even bid these? If someone gets hurt because there is no ground, can I be held responsible?
Thanks
Power Tech

Dosen't sound like much of a rehab.

As far as liability goes no matter what you do you will be responsible. Lawyers will see to that.

 

[growler]

Anybody know if it is required to bring this up to a 3 wire service and rewire the house. Or is it legal to change like with like. Do they even make polarity receptacles anymore? Should I even bid these? If someone gets hurt because there is no ground, can I be held responsible.

Check with AHJ but also find out why they are rehabing the houses in the first place. If they are being rehabed for low income rental units then the section eight office will have a say in what you do and if they are to be sold under cetain types of loans ( FHA ) then the loan office will have certain requirements. Look at thing that may need to be added like smoke detectors, GFCI outlets in bathrooms, vent fans in bathrooms, small appliance circuits, microwave circuits, if the add a laundry area then laundry circuit.

They may want three pronged outlets and will accept ungrounded protected by GFCI and they may want a minimum of 100 A service.
Do your homework and find out what will have to be done to satisfy any contract entered into.

 

[satcom]

Check with AHJ but also find out why they are rehabing the houses in the first place. If they are being rehabed for low income rental units then the section eight office will have a say in what you do and if they are to be sold under cetain types of loans ( FHA ) then the loan office will have certain requirements. Look at thing that may need to be added like smoke detectors, GFCI outlets in bathrooms, vent fans in bathrooms, small appliance circuits, microwave circuits, if the add a laundry area then laundry circuit.

They may want three pronged outlets and will accept ungrounded protected by GFCI and they may want a minimum of 100 A service.
Do your homework and find out what will have to be done to satisfy any contract entered into.

Good points, check all the other requirements that may apply, before bidding.

 

[LarryFine]

The panel has no main breaker.

It's possible that this panel is what's called a "split-bus" panel. Picture two 12-space main-lug panel 'guts,' stacked one above the other, in a single enclosure. The lower section is fed by a 2-pole breaker installed in the upper section, labeled "main".

When you can de-energize the entire load with no more than six "throws of the hand," a main is not required. The largest 2-pole loads are usually placed on top, and the single-pole breakers and any remaining 2-poles are placed in the lower section.

Anybody know if it is required to bring this up to a 3 wire service and rewire the house. Or is it legal to change like with like. Do they even make polarity receptacles anymore?

That depends on your local requirements. Around here, if you renovate over 50% of the premises by floor area, the entire structure must be brought to present code. This includes receptacle placement and location rules, as well as the stuff mentioned above.

Should I even bid these? If someone gets hurt because there is no ground, can I be held responsible?

What would your role be in this? Are you an EC? Your permit application should include whatever work is necessary to make any work done compliant with whatever electrical code is required by whatever building code will be in force.

The GC is the one you need to find out most of this info from, and your local permits and inspections dept. can answer the rest of your questions. Once you have that done, we can discuss options for doing the work in a way that is both compliant and safe.


And welcome to the zoo! :smile:

 

[mdshunk]

The question I have is why would not not rewire them?

 

[Power Tech]

Thank You.

Thank You.

Great input. I will include many of them in my exclusions. Bid day is tomorrow and I am calling the inspector first thing to get his opinion. I think originally the services only had 6 divisions, no main. It figures that it's the old push-matic breakers. I am going to push for a rewire, and new service with main. Great idea using the GFI's, seems the only option to in giving them grounded receptacles.

 

[Power Tech]

Thanks

Thanks

Great input. I will include them in my exclusions. The service is a 3 wire 240v and no main. I've been trying to contact the inspector since Monday. I know what FHA is but, what is AHJ? Great idea using the GFI's, that may be the only option to provide a safe grounded receptacle. I will be sugesting a rewire and panel with main. Th breakers are the old Bulldog Push-Matic. I am including AC/DC smokes wired in series. I want to provid a seperate circuit but will exceed the 6 divisions of load.