Optional Standby Generator Setup

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jerryalan

jerryalan

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Location
Perry, Mi. Shiawassee
Occupation
electrician
i reckon this is where i show my ignorance.
there was a deleted topic that i would like to explore a bit.
i have several of these installs out there and have never given it a second thought.
emergecy home use generators, i've taken a 30' ~ 50' 8/3 w/gnd cord, twist lock male on one end and one or two 4sq. boxes with duplex receptacles on the other end.
the furnace, well and sump pump i've changed to plug and receptacle connections so that in the event of a power failure the HO can still have someplace warm to flush his commode.
these devices are totally isolated from the POCO when running off the generator and are pulling less current than the generator can supply.
i feel this is safe and compliant, unless i'm missing something?
 
jerryalan said:
i reckon this is where i show my ignorance.
there was a deleted topic that i would like to explore a bit.
i have several of these installs out there and have never given it a second thought.
emergecy home use generators, i've taken a 30' ~ 50' 8/3 w/gnd cord, twist lock male on one end and one or two 4sq. boxes with duplex receptacles on the other end.
the furnace, well and sump pump i've changed to plug and receptacle connections so that in the event of a power failure the HO can still have someplace warm to flush his commode.
these devices are totally isolated from the POCO when running off the generator and are pulling less current than the generator can supply.
i feel this is safe and compliant, unless i'm missing something?
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with it. Ho unplugs from the premise wireing and plugs into gen. recp. no chance of back feeding utility. Not a lot different than having a manual transfer switch where the HO sheds loads in the panel. The only issue would be is can the furnace be cord and plug connected?
 
jerryalan said:
i reckon this is where i show my ignorance.
there was a deleted topic that i would like to explore a bit.
i have several of these installs out there and have never given it a second thought.
emergecy home use generators, i've taken a 30' ~ 50' 8/3 w/gnd cord, twist lock male on one end and one or two 4sq. boxes with duplex receptacles on the other end.
the furnace, well and sump pump i've changed to plug and receptacle connections so that in the event of a power failure the HO can still have someplace warm to flush his commode.
these devices are totally isolated from the POCO when running off the generator and are pulling less current than the generator can supply.
i feel this is safe and compliant, unless i'm missing something?
Click to expand...

George Stolz said:
What about 210.21(B)(3)?
Click to expand...

You are correct, George. After rereading the OP it would seem the poster is coming off of the 30amp 220v recp. on the gen. to make a 120v mwbc or is using a duplex recpt to feed 220v to the equipment.

Need a little more info on this set up from the OP, but for now I will regress from my earlier statement.
 
my opinion is that 250.34(A) takes care of the grounding issue and, as ceb58, stated the cord & plug co version on the furnace might be a Code issue. I have seen several installs similar to this and figured it was the lesser of the "double male plug" design.
That said, assuming the OP is using the 20 amp 125v generator outlets.
 
ceb58 said:
That's the question. The OP said he was using 8-3/w ground. To me this would be saying he is using the 240v 30amp plug on the generator.:confused:
Click to expand...

sometimes i use the 30A and sometimes the 20A receptacle on the generator. the several generators i've looked at have a jumper from the 30 to the 20 behind the panel, they don't have separate windings for 20 and 30.

that being said, i use the 8AWG so i can plug into either receptacle. anything after that should have it's own protection. i can plug an alarm clock into a 20A ckt. and my only concern is the breaker sized properly to protect the wire?

why would a plug/receptacle be inappropriate for a furnace?
 
jerryalan said:
sometimes i use the 30A and sometimes the 20A receptacle on the generator. the several generators i've looked at have a jumper from the 30 to the 20 behind the panel, they don't have separate windings for 20 and 30.

that being said, i use the 8AWG so i can plug into either receptacle. anything after that should have it's own protection. i can plug an alarm clock into a 20A ckt. and my only concern is the breaker sized properly to protect the wire?

why would a plug/receptacle be inappropriate for a furnace?
Click to expand...

The question is what voltage. If you are using the 30amp plug on the gen every one I have seen is 240v. If you are using the 30amp and creating a mwbc to feed 120v duplex receptacles then George is correct it would violate 210.21 B 3. If you are using the 20amp 120v receptacle on the gen. then you would comply with the code.
What breaker are you speaking of? The one on the generator?
 
If you are using the 30 amp receptacles, I can see a multitude of problems (422.11(A), 422.12, 210.23, 210.24, 240.5).
Converting the furnace to a cord and plug is questionable under both 422.16 and 400.8.
 
jerryalan said:
sometimes i use the 30A and sometimes the 20A receptacle on the generator. the several generators i've looked at have a jumper from the 30 to the 20 behind the panel, they don't have separate windings for 20 and 30.

that being said, i use the 8AWG so i can plug into either receptacle. anything after that should have it's own protection. i can plug an alarm clock into a 20A ckt. and my only concern is the breaker sized properly to protect the wire?

why would a plug/receptacle be inappropriate for a furnace?
Click to expand...
jerryalan, what size OCPD (breaker) does the generator have?
 
jerryalan said:
sometimes i use the 30A and sometimes the 20A receptacle on the generator. the several generators i've looked at have a jumper from the 30 to the 20 behind the panel, they don't have separate windings for 20 and 30.
that being said, i use the 8AWG so i can plug into either receptacle. anything after that should have it's own protection. i can plug an alarm clock into a 20A ckt. and my only concern is the breaker sized properly to protect the wire?
Click to expand...
Sounds like your generator supplies one cord with a 120/240 1ph 4w cap for individual 120v & 240v loads - how are you splitting this circuit?
 
augie47 said:
If you are using the 30 amp receptacles, I can see a multitude of problems (422.11(A), 422.12, 210.23, 210.24, 240.5).
Converting the furnace to a cord and plug is questionable under both 422.16 and 400.8.
Click to expand...

I have to completely agree with this.

With that in mind and knowing that there are so many other unquestionably legal and safe methods available, most of which are easier to install than the ops setup, I have to ask why would someone even come up with this? :-?
 
electricmanscott said:
I have to completely agree with this.

With that in mind and knowing that there are so many other unquestionably legal and safe methods available, most of which are easier to install than the ops setup, I have to ask why would someone even come up with this? :-?
Click to expand...
i've read each reply and have studied each code article referenced and can not find anything to justify this install.
However, this is an emergency set-up so the HO can have water and heat during a power failure without resorting to a cord with two males.
i cord and plug the furnace and well pump so that i know that nothing else is on these circuits.

sometimes a transfer switch or panel can not be sold, especially when the HO knows the dryer receptacle can back feed his entire house.

okay, i've got egg on my face . . .

thanks for the insight everyone
 
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