OSHA and Electrical maintenance

[bigshoR1]

I work for a company as a maintenance electrician and recently the company said that it was O.K. for non electricians (not apprentices and no education in electrical theory)to troubleshoot electrical problems on up to 480 volts as long as they wear the proper safety gear, if I or another electrician is not available. I addressed the issue as a major safety concern for the protection of my fellow employees, but was told that thier policy and interview process for hiring made them comfortable with the persons knowledge. Now this is a good company and I'm not trying to bash them but I think someone (ie OSHA) might have a different take on this. Also the chance of someone not qualified being sent out on something is rare but it only takes one mistake to hurt or kill someone. Anybody have any input on this.

 

[480sparky]

Read them the definition of "Qualified Person." Then show them NFPA publication 70E-2004.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

It never ceases to amaze me how $$ can get in the way of a good decision.

 

[tomP]

I agree on the 70E, however I wonder how a unqualified person with no electrical theory
could do a quality job of trouble shooting?

 

[480sparky]

Hmmmm..... Lessee here. I spent 4 years in apprentice school ($$$!), put in 10,000 on-the-job hours and took a sweatin'-bullets six-hour test on a Saturday to get my journeyman card. After that, I put in another 4,000 hours and took yet another test (more $$$!) to get my Masters. All along the way, I had to buy things like books and stuff. I asked my boss to put me to work with the guys on the crew that seemed to know what they were doing. I asked questions. I cracked the books at night. I immersed myself in this trade so I could learn every thing I could, and as of today, I still haven't learned it all.
Now, along comes Joe Sixpack and he's 'qualified' just because this outfit hired him?

Where do I pick up an application? Seems I did this all wrong to begin with.

 

[petersonra]

There are a lot of people who are quite good at electrical troubleshooter who could not run a level piece of conduit to save their soul (me being one of them).

I am not convinced that the possession of a piece of paper makes one a competent electrical troubleshooter, so it does not bother me one iota that they allow people who are not "electricians" to troubleshoot electrical problems.

As long as they can safely do so, I say let them.

interview process for hiring made them comfortable with the persons knowledge

would seem to imply they are at least somewhat competent.

 

[tomP]

would seem to imply they are at least somewhat competent.

"At least somewhat competent", would not work for me on electrical work by themselves.
Of course there is no way to know their competency, so the whole conversation is moot.

I started work at a plant which had no "electricians" prior to my being hired
and the machine companies and their service reps
made some money.

When working on a machine control panel the plants "trouble shooter" would close his eyes,
turn around in a circle three times, stop, point at some component and replace it.
If that didn't help he would repeat the sequence.

O.K. it wasn't quite that bad, but darn near!

 

[aja21]

I agree with 480sparky and tomp. I also agree that just because you have a piece of paper doesn't make you a competant troubleshooter. The bottom line is that if you don't have a documented proof that you have passed a reasonable amount of testing and training you shouldn't be messing with electricity. I'm fairly knowledgeable about how carpal tunnel release is done after 15 plus years in the electrical business. Would you like me to do your surgery?

 

[480sparky]

As long as they can safely do so, I say let them.

So if I told you I was competent to handle automatic weapons, would you just hand me a fully loaded AK47?

I've seen second-year apprentices that run circles around 20-year journeymen. I've also seen guys who have been in the trade for 20 years that can't pass the Jman test to save their lives, but are still dam? good electricians. So I totally agree that just because someone 'has experience', 'has taken the test,' or 'has a journeyman card' doesn't necessarily mean they're "qualified."
The issue here is of liability of the company. Imagine poor old Cletus putting down his broom one day and getting elbow-deep in 480volt switchgear and discovering the Big Blue Zot. How much is OSHA going to fine the company for having an unqualified, untrained person doing that sort of work? How much are his widow's lawyers going to rake in? The company doesn't stand a chance if their defense is, "Well, he told us he could do it...."

 

[zog]

"There are a lot of people who are quite good at electrical troubleshooter who could not run a level piece of conduit to save their soul (me being one of them)."

Thats me too.

No where in the 70E or OSHA does it say anything about being a journeyman toowever, you do need to be qualified. However you do need to understand the construction and operation of the equipment, hazards involved, proper use of test equipment, etc...

 

[dab]

since we are on the subject of qualified persons... california has state certification in effect. the division of apprenticeship standards which is under the department of industrial relations has set the standards for which all electricians who work for ec's must reach. this is called testing. if you aren't capable of passing an open book test on something you have been doing for years then that could be a sign that they are either lazy or ignorant. i personally don't want to work around either.

 

[len149]

There are a lot of people who are quite good at electrical troubleshooter who could not run a level piece of conduit to save their soul (me being one of them).

I am not convinced that the possession of a piece of paper makes one a competent electrical troubleshooter, so it does not bother me one iota that they allow people who are not "electricians" to troubleshoot electrical problems.

As long as they can safely do so, I say let them.

would seem to imply they are at least somewhat competent.

There are many who are ignorant to the fact that they don't know what they are doing, and know just enough to be a danger to themselves and others. Individuals will exaggerate their knowledge to obtain a position with a company. If the position is of a non-hazardous nature then a mistake would cause minimal damage, in the electrical field it could cost them or others their life. There is a valid need to be certified to show one has base line skills and have passed written requirements to prove capabilities in the electrical field. The electrical journeyman license is a good place to start.

 

[pfalcon]

Like Bob I am a controls engineer. Frankly I excel at troubleshooting in general. I'm also not an electrician. My take on the whole thing is a little different however. I drive from the backseat when I'm needed. I went to school and trained to be an engineer not an electrician; no disrespect intended.

Life is about the odds not the absolutes. Every fifth person in a job has the knack of it, every fifth person in the job ought to be fired, and the three in the middle work mainly off of training and experience. The hands-on part of troubleshooting ought to be done by an electrician. That gives you a four in five shot at the person being safe. Typically that fifth guy beggars off passing the job to someone else anyway.

The problem with not using an electrician for the hands-on part is that only one in five people have enough knack to know when they are too deep. The rest need the training and experience that comes with the apprenticeship to know the difference.

So I send an electrician first. He'll have the basic troubleshooting skills to take care of all the basic problems. If he's got the knack he'll do most of the complex problems too. That gives me time to deal with the really interesting and mysterious problems that are left over. And while I'm beating my brains for a solution I'll use his hands so to speak. I'm safer. He's safer. The company cash is safer. The equipment is safer.

And I guarantee my company is not qualified to judge capability other than by that small piece of paper.

 

[petersonra]

The original poster indicated that the company did not hire just any old dufuss and send him off to wire up 15kv switchgear.

I don't know what the minimal level of knowledge and skill is for being able to safely do some basic electrical troubleshooting, but I would bet that the electrical safety side of it could be learned in a day, especially if the troubleshooting was restricted to certain types of activities. And it seems like the company has recognized that in their hiring process, and in their actual practices.

 

[pfalcon]

No disrespect was meant to either the OP or yourself Bob. I was observing the situation in my company to give him a comparison.

My site is a factory with the population of a small town. What he stated his company was doing would flat out fail here. Our interviewers are not in any way qualified to bless someone to work on a flashlight.

Further since the foremen we are assigning them nowadays are freshly sprouted from two-year tech schools, frequently with no electrical content, they have trouble knowing where the restrictions begin and end.

I certainly hope his company is talking straight when they say they are covering the safety issues when using non-electricians. At my company I would feel obligated to back the OP. But I really only know my company, not his or yours. So the situation can be wildly different.

 

[memyselfandI]

There are a lot of people who are quite good at electrical troubleshooter who could not run a level piece of conduit to save their soul (me being one of them).

I am not convinced that the possession of a piece of paper makes one a competent electrical troubleshooter, so it does not bother me one iota that they allow people who are not "electricians" to troubleshoot electrical problems.

As long as they can safely do so, I say let them.

would seem to imply they are at least somewhat competent.

That has got to be the biggest insult I've ever heard in this forum and it slams ALL who have paid their dues and completed the training and the schooling, studied hard and took the exam just to get that "little piece of paper". It may not mean much to you, but to the person who only has that "little piece of paper" it means everything. Do not belittle the accomplishments of those who chose to get the training and the schooling and take the exam because in my eyes I see an individual is committed to a carreer not just there collecting a paycheck. I earned my "little piece of paper" and proud that I have gained the level of experience through hard work and dedication and take my hat off to all who have earned their "little piece of paper".

 

[len149]

I would bet that the electrical safety side of it could be learned in a day,

I would bet that the electrical safety side of it could be learned in a day,

petersonra, also wrote "I would bet that the electrical safety side of it could be learned in a day,"

Just goes to show my point "There are many who are ignorant to the fact that they don't know what they are doing"! they just assume they do. For one to safely work on or near live exposed electrical equipment, one must have a understanding of what they are working on and the proper work practices to accomplish the task. I'm a state licensed Contractor / Master Electrician, licensed UAW electrician and going for my associate in Electrical Engineering and I'm still learning. The NFPA 70E ELECTRICAL SAFETY REQUIREMENTS FOR EMPLOYEE WORKPLACES is a good place to start and maybe legally required to follow, look it up on line and try to understand it you'll find it is not something that can be understood without a proper back ground in the electrical field. Thus, it would take more than one day!!!!

 

[petersonra]

petersonra, also wrote "I would bet that the electrical safety side of it could be learned in a day,"

Just goes to show my point "There are many who are ignorant to the fact that they don't know what they are doing"! they just assume they do. For one to safely work on or near live exposed electrical equipment, one must have a understanding of what they are working on and the proper work practices to accomplish the task. I'm a state licensed Contractor / Master Electrician, licensed UAW electrician and going for my associate in Electrical Engineering and I'm still learning. The NFPA 70E ELECTRICAL SAFETY REQUIREMENTS FOR EMPLOYEE WORKPLACES is a good place to start and maybe legally required to follow, look it up on line and try to understand it you'll find it is not something that can be understood without a proper back ground in the electrical field. Thus, it would take more than one day!!!!

Its not nice to deliberately misrepresent what I said.

The OP indicated the people in question were not rank amateurs when it comes to electricity. Surely someone with an understanding of electricity can learn the electrical safety procedures that need to be followed for llimited troubleshooting in a short period of time.

NFPA70E never says that anyone that comes anywhere near electricity has to be an expert in everything having to do with electricity. And certainly there are very few people who are legitimately expert at understanding and interpreting NFPA70E. It is just not necessary for everyone with a pair of Kleins to have that expertise. It is only necessary for them to know what they are capable of doing and how to do it in a safe way.

 

[dbuckley]

I work for a company as a maintenance electrician and recently the company said that it was O.K. for non electricians (not apprentices and no education in electrical theory)to troubleshoot electrical problems on up to 480 volts as long as they wear the proper safety gear

How is a non-electrician supposed to have any idea what the "proper safety gear" is?

 

[jim dungar]

How is a non-electrician supposed to have any idea what the "proper safety gear" is?

I think too many people are forgetting that there are levels of qualification, like Bob pointed out.

I doubt that few here are a licensed sailors, but I am sure most know what safe PPE is needed in a canoe.

I am not a firefighter, but I know how to use a 3lb fire extinguisher and it didn't take me a full day to learn it either. But I also learned when to leave the fire to the experts.

I am not an electrician, but I positively know what the "proper safety gear" is. For example, I am fully trained on measuring 1500V but I am not qualified when it comes to terminating 1500V equipment.