Our work vs some of our competitors

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pomsjosephm

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Location
New Haven, CT
I figured I would share with all of you what some of our competitors do with fire alarms:
Here is what some of our competitors do with fire alarms:
As you can when I opened a access panel in the ceiling I saw the fire alarm
spliced to the tamper and flows. "Fire alarm splicing shall be done in junction boxes"

THERE IS 1/4" seperation between power limited and non power limited in our
panels, in the pictures it's hard to see the dept.

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Here is what we do


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Another example:
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GoldDigger said:
Which means that the inspection by the Fire Marshall does not worry about the workmanship or compliance either, I guess.
Click to expand...

Very true, I have seen AHJ's not even open the panel. Some simply check that all the devices work on DC power and that's it. However I have been showing AHJ's our work and we have built a great reputation in many towns and now they expect other panels and systems to be more thorough. Here is a great list of common codes that I give to all AHJ's.
Fundamentals
1. Equipment shall be listed for the purpose used
2. Equipment powered from the IDC or SLC shall be listed with control
3. All power supplies shall be installed to conform to NFPA 70
4. Fire alarm shall have two reliable power supplies: primary/secondary
5. Location of disconnecting means shall be identified at the control unit
6. All commercial systems shall have a minimum of 24 hours and 5 minutes of alarm capability
7. Voice evacuation systems shall have 24 hours and 15 minutes at maximum connected load
8. Supervising station shall have 24 hours of backup
9. The secondary supply shall automatically switch within 10 seconds
10. Location of remote power supplies shall be identified at control unit and on record drawings
11. Batteries shall be recharged within 48 hrs of discharge
12. Actuation of alarm notification appliances shall occur within 10 seconds after alarm
13. Supervisory signals shall be indicated within 90 seconds (visibly and audibly}
14. Trouble signals and their restoration shall be indicated within 200 seconds
15. Equipment shall be able to operate at 85% of nameplate voltage
16. Equipment shall be able to operate at 110% of nameplate voltage
17. Equipment shall operate at temperatures of 320-1200 F
18. Equipment shall be able to operate at 85% humidity and ambient temp of 860 F
19. Automatic smoke detectors shall be provided at the location of all control equipment, NAC power extenders, & supervising station transmitting equipment when not continuously occupied
20. Systems with two or more zones shall identify the zone in alarm condition
21. Each floor of the building shall be considered a separate zone
22. If a system serves more than one building, each shall be zoned separately
23. Amplifier failure shall result in trouble signal (when speakers used for notification}
Inspection. Testing. and Maintenance
24. A record of completion shall be prepared for each system by a qualified person
25. A complete record of tests and operations shall be kept until the next test and 1year after
26. Supervising stations shall maintain records of all signals and tests for not less than 1year
27. The owner is responsible for system testing, inspection & maintenance
28. Delegation of this responsibility shall be in writing
29. Acceptance testing shall be done on all new systems
30. Smoke detector sensitivity shall be checked within 1 year of installation
31. Smoke detector sensitivity shall be checked every alternate year thereafter
32. If the smoke detector remains within listed sensitivity range, then sensitivity tests can be extended to 5 years
33. Sensitivity may not be tested using a device that administers unmeasured smoke concentration
34. In one and two family dwellings, smoke alarms should be inspected and tested at least monthly
35. All circuits extending from the supervising station shall be tested every 24 hours
Initiating Devices
36. Initiating devices shall be protected from mechanical damage
37. Protective guards shall be listed for use with the specific detector
38. Detectors installed in concealed locations greater than 10' AFF shall be provided with remote alarm indicators.
39. Control units which specifically identifies the detector(s) in alarm or supervisory shall meet the
remote alarm indicator requirements
40. Where partitions extend to within 15% of the ceiling height, the spaces shall be considered as separate rooms
41. Where non-required detection devices are installed for achieving specific fire safety objectives, additional detection devices shall not be required throughout the building or room.
Heat Detectors
42. Heat detectors shall be marked with a color code or numerals at least 3/8" to indicate temp
43. Temperature of the detector shall be at least 20QFabove maximum expected ceiling temp
44. All points on the ceiling shall have a detector within 0.7 listed spacing
45. Ceiling mount heat detectors shall not be mounted within 4" of the sidewall
46. Wall mounted heat detectors shall be mounted between 4" and 12"
47. Definition: Joist Construction: Joists project down more than 4" and spaced 3' or less
48. Heat detectors shall be mounted on the bottom of the joists and spacing perpendicular to the joists shall be reduced by 50%
49. Definition: Beam Construction: Beams project down more than 4" and spaced more than 3'
50. A ceiling shall be treated as smooth if the beams project no more than 4" from the ceiling
51. Where the beams project more than 4" from the ceiling the spacing at right angles to the direction of beam travel shall be not more than 2/3 of the listed spacing
52. Beam construction where the beams project more than 18" and are more that 8' on center
require each bay to be considered a separate area
53. Beam construction where the beams project less than 12" and are less that 8' on center
detectors are allowed to be installed on the bottom
54. Less than 30?: all detectors spacing using height at ceiling
55. 30 ? or greater: all detectors, other than those located at the peak, shall be spaced using the average slope height or the height of the peak
56. Peaked ceiling spacing shall be based on a horizontal projection of the ceiling
57. A row of detectors shall first be located at or within 36" of the peak
58. Ceiling heights up to and including 10' shall use heat detector listed spacing
59. Ceiling heights above 10' and up to and including 30' shall reduce spacing
Smoke Detector
60. Smoke detectors located on the sidewall shall have some portion of the detector within 12" of the ceiling (2007 - between 4-12" from ceiling) I
61. For smooth/flat ceilings smoke detectors spacing shall be nominal 30 ft
62. Solid joists shall be treated as beams for smoke detectors
63. For ceilings with beam depths of less than 10% of the ceiling height smooth ceiling spacing
shall be permitted
64. Detectors shall be permitted on the ceiling or on the bottom of the beams
65. For ceilings with beam depths equal or greater than 10% use the following:
66. Where beam spacing is equal to or greater than 40% of the ceiling height, detectors shall be located in each pocket

Supervisory Devices
87. Control valve supervisory devices shall initiate an off normal Signal during the first 2 revolutions of the hand wheel or during 1/5th the distance off normal
88. Pressure supervisory devices shall indicate a change in pressure of +/-10 psi
89. The max number of supervisory devices connected to one zone is 20
Pull Stations
90. Pull stations shall be used for fire alarm initiation only
91. Pull stations shall be mounted so the actuator is not less than 3W and not more than 4' above floor level (2007: 3.5 - 4')
92. Pull stations shall be located within 5' of the exit doorway opening
93. Pull stations shall be located at each exit on each floor
94. Pull stations shall be mounted on both sides of the group openings
95. Within 5' on each side of group opening over 40'
96. Pull stations shall be located so travel distance to the nearest device will not exceed 200 feet
Notification Appliances
97. All notification appliances shall be listed for the purpose they are used
98. Appliances used in special environments shall be listed for such use
99. Appliances used for signaling other than fire shall not have the word "FIRE" or any fire symbol on it
100. Appliances shall be protected from physical damage. Protective guards or covers shall be listed for use with the appliance
101. An average ambient sound level of 105 dBa shall require a strobe
102. The total sound pressure shall not exceed 110 dBa anywhere in the occupied area
103. Sounds from normal or permanent sources lasting more than 60 seconds shall be included in ambient sound level measurement, sounds from temporary or abnormal sources are not
required to be included
104. Evacuation signals shall use three pulse temporal pattern (Temporal 3) ANSI 53.41
105. Evacuation signal shall be synchronized in the notification zone
106. All fire alarms provided for evac shall have 1 or more notification appliances per floor
107. Notification appliances are not required in exit stair enclosures, exit passageways, and elevator cars
108. Notification zones shall be consistent with emergency response or evac zones
109. Use of system for non-emergency communications is permitted as long as it does not interfere
with fire alarm or mass notification systems
Audibles
110. Public mode audibles shall have a sound level of 15 dBa above average ambient
111. Public mode audibles shall have a sound level of 5 dBa above max sound level with a duration of at least 60 seconds
112. For systems arranged to reduce or stop ambient sound, audible appliances shall meet public mode requirements based on the reduced ambient sound levels.
113. Audible devices shall have their tops located at least 90" AFF
114. Audible devices shall have their tops located at least 6" below the finished ceiling
 
Strobes
115. Strobes shall be located so that the entire lens is at least 80/1 AFF
116. Where ceiling heights do not allow for a minimum of 80" the appliance shall be mounted within
6" of the ceiling
117. Strobes shall be located so the entire lens is not more than 96/1 AFF
118. For non square rooms, the max room size dimension shall be determined by using a square which completely encompasses the non square room
Emergency Control Functions
119. Control circuit relays shall be located within 3 ft of the controlled circuit or appliance
120. Failsafe relays and appliances shall be considered self monitored.
121. A relay must function within voltage/current limits of fire alarm control
Elevator Recall & Shutdown
122. Smoke detectors used for elevator recall shall be connected to the control equipment
123. Only automatic detectors located in the elevator lobbies, hoistways, machine rooms shall
initiate elevator recall for fire fighter service
124. Smoke detectors shall not be installed in un-sprinkled elevator hoistways un less they are installed to activate smoke relief equipment
125. When conditions prohibit the use of smoke detectors other detectors shall be used
126. Where lobby detectors are used for other than elevator recall, they must initiate an alarm signal
127. When heat detectors are used to shutdown the elevator prior to operation of the sprinkler they shall have a lower temp rating and sensitivity
128. Elevator shutdown heat detectors shall be installed with 2 ft of the hoistway sprinkler head
129. Retards shall not be used on waterflows used for elevator shutdown
Door Unlock
130. A" electronic door locking devices/systems shall be connected to the FACP
131. All exits shall unlock upon alarm activation
132. A" exits shall unlock upon loss of primary power to the FACP
133. The unlocking of the doors shall occur prior to or simultaneous to the evac signal
134. Unlocked doors must remain unlocked until the fire alarm is reset
 
GoldDigger said:
Which means that the inspection by the Fire Marshall does not worry about the workmanship or compliance either, I guess.
Click to expand...

Many times it's ignorance on the inspector, not that it's an excuse. Seems AHJ's want to be patient and "Business" friendly. I find the ones that are rigid pricks (and this is a term of endearment) have quality work done throughout their jurisdiction. Makes bidding truely competitive. They seem to have a firm grasp on FA fundamentals. This is important to bringing the industry as a whole up in status.

Quality is most expensive than crap, and your customers doesn't know or care. I'm generalizing about the customer. We take great pride in a quality workman like installation, sometimes we have to do the absolute minimum to compete, and that stings me a bit, but it's a business. As iwire would point out its not my money being spent.

I could share pics and stories of work that would make you cry. No J boxes and sloppy is irrelevant when safety functions are intentionally subverted. A conscious is not a requirement and is quite optional in the FA industry...IMO. It is getting better, keep doing jobs that neat and we all benefit a little.
 
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The first pic is not neat, but it is a 10 zone just about fully loaded.
The neat pic is of 4 zones in a 5 zone box.
I love those FACPs, they are a very easy installation. One trick I did was to put the variable message to "NOT IN SERVICE" until all the installation was complete and checked out. The other thing I always did was to install the FACP and put termination resistors on all the supervised circuit connectors on the panel and prove the panel out, before connecting any external wiring (other than power).
 
Since I'm located in the same state as the OP and commonly work, albeit on very large projects in comparison to theirs, what I have noticed since I moved from a single vendor/installation company is this....

It seems that in "our" area, other than the single solution shops, a lot of these jobs are rough wired by the prime EC and the LV contractor becomes parts and smarts, or similar. It seems like there's more installs going this way, or at least as I have seen.

Not an excuse for slop or shoddy workmanship, but there's a cost involved to doing work in an artistic and tradesman manner vs. getting it up and running.

I have pictures that would make you cry also, and I have artwork installs, but I can speak in my world that we're commonly under the gun to not have a system down or to run tandem while under construction/upgrade, otherwise it's a fire watch paying the FD to come in and the ugliness that comes with it, and what you see is a rats nest that comes about while attempting to be competitive and get it working ASAP. Not proud, but large facilities here..
 
del91574 said:
Since I'm located in the same state as the OP and commonly work, albeit on very large projects in comparison to theirs, what I have noticed since I moved from a single vendor/installation company is this....

It seems that in "our" area, other than the single solution shops, a lot of these jobs are rough wired by the prime EC and the LV contractor becomes parts and smarts, or similar. It seems like there's more installs going this way, or at least as I have seen.

Not an excuse for slop or shoddy workmanship, but there's a cost involved to doing work in an artistic and tradesman manner vs. getting it up and running.

I have pictures that would make you cry also, and I have artwork installs, but I can speak in my world that we're commonly under the gun to not have a system down or to run tandem while under construction/upgrade, otherwise it's a fire watch paying the FD to come in and the ugliness that comes with it, and what you see is a rats nest that comes about while attempting to be competitive and get it working ASAP. Not proud, but large facilities here..
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in and I believe you are on DIYalarmforum. We also work on large projects and we do multiple large scale apartment complexes and many commercial installations and we are now licensed in NY. We have almost maxed out a 9600UDLS on two slc loops with the slc expansion module. We are electrical contractors as well as low voltage and if another electrical contractor is doing the job I immediate make good friend with him/her. I review the prints in regards to the fire alarm and it's common it does not meet NFPA 72 compliance.

We all know there is cost involved but a true professional installer can wire panels in matter of less than an hour. There is no excuse, we know our
tools as well as using them properly and I make sure the job is laid out properly in regards what involves us. I talk with the GC and anyone I need. Delegation is key and sure we are under the gun with deadlines etc.. but again I find this to be well avoided by taking initiative. 95% of fire alarm systems
are installed incorrectly and it comes down to lack of knowledge of the owner and installer for example NFPA 72 requires each floor shall be considered
a separate zone and annuciated separately problem is an installer will run one cable to serve two floors and will not even use riser etc.. Again, lack of knowledge because if something is wrong you need to say something about it. Also, too many trunk slammers in our state Del, we have a guy that I see at ADI who runs his company out of his car with a ladder strapped to the roof and he showed up at a doctors practice smelling like boo's and looked high as kite. I understand where you are coming from but I also understand that jobs don't have to turn out a mess and if I can make a difference then at the end of the day it's all worth it. I don't take on more then we can handle or setup 5-6 large jobs at a time and we have been very successful. I love what I do and I will always be passionate about life safety.
 
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