out building

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domnic

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Electrical Contractor
I will be installing a 60 amp sub feed in a out building 50' from home three #6 THHN and #10 thhn green 120/240 volt .and ground rod. is the #10 ok for EGC?
 
main breaker

main breaker

will i need a main breaker in the sub feed panel in the out building ?
 
out building

out building

Can i use a 100 panel with 100 main breaker in the out building it is feed with a 60 amp breaker ?
 
out building

Sub feed to out building running 120/240 volt 4 wires 2 hots 1 neutral 1 EGC do i connect the GLC TO THE NEUTRAL BUSS OR THE EGC BUSS?
 
jumper said:
You need a disconnecting means. A main breaker or a switch/disconnect.

See 225.31, 225.32, and 225.36
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you missed 225.33 - which contains "not more than six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard or switchgear" (The "or switchgear" was added in 2014.)

If you have 6 or less branch circuits in this outbuilding a main lug panel with up to six breakers is acceptable. That is six handles not six pole spaces so one could have an 18 space main lug panel filled with all three pole breakers and still meet this section requirements.
 
kwired said:
you missed 225.33 - which contains "not more than six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard or switchgear" (The "or switchgear" was added in 2014.)

If you have 6 or less branch circuits in this outbuilding a main lug panel with up to six breakers is acceptable. That is six handles not six pole spaces so one could have an 18 space main lug panel filled with all three pole breakers and still meet this section requirements.
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It's a wonder they don't specify a panel that will hold no more than the 6 handles. More breakers could easily be added later making the disconnect non-compliant.

I say this with a little "tongue & cheek" because of all the "what ifs" I hear from some inspectors.:happyyes:
 
If you are under the 2011 code or an earlier code, it is unlikely that you can use six breakers in a panel as the means of disconnect. 225.36 in the 2011 code specifies that the means of disconnect be listed as "service equipment". Almost all panelboards are listed for use as service equipment when they have a single main breaker. Those panelboards are not suitable for use as service equipment when used with more than one main breaker. This rule was changed for the 2014 code and the second building disconnect is no longer required to be listed as service equipment.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
If you are under the 2011 code or an earlier code, it is unlikely that you can use six breakers in a panel as the means of disconnect. 225.36 in the 2011 code specifies that the means of disconnect be listed as "service equipment". Almost all panelboards are listed for use as service equipment when they have a single main breaker. Those panelboards are not suitable for use as service equipment when used with more than one main breaker. This rule was changed for the 2014 code and the second building disconnect is no longer required to be listed as service equipment.
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Good point, and I may have overlooked this a time or two. May be that was never how it was intended and the reason for the change in 2014??

Of course if using as service equipment, you still have the listing and instructions that come with the listing when it comes to "suitable for use as service equipment" so you still couldn't do it with service panels if they still have the same instructions.
 
Little Bill said:
It's a wonder they don't specify a panel that will hold no more than the 6 handles. More breakers could easily be added later making the disconnect non-compliant.

I say this with a little "tongue & cheek" because of all the "what ifs" I hear from some inspectors.:happyyes:
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My answer to that is the guy that adds the 7th breaker is the one that created the violation.

Example is I-line panels. I installed one last year using the 6 disconnect rule - as service equipment. I-line doesn't exactly have "spaces", depending on breaker type they take up certain "width" along the bus. There are breakers that range from only maybe 3 inches wide for some smaller 3 pole frames to maybe 12 inches wide for some larger frames, and all could be in the same enclosure on the same bus. That was just accounting for 3 pole units, throw in a single or double pole unit and you have even more diversity in space needed. In my install I had a 1200 amp main lug kit that took up maybe 9 inches of bus, two 400 amp breakers that took up maybe 6 inches of bus each and a couple 125 amp breakers that took up maybe 4.5 inches of bus each. (I said maybe because I can't recall for certain but should be close) . I have ability to add two more "handles" before I am in violation of the 6 handle rule, but how much bus length should I have for those two spaces? Each additional handle to be added may possibly take anywhere from an inch to 9 inches per handle. The panel I used had well over the necessary space to add two more nine inch breakers - but it is the guy that adds the 7th handle that is the one who creates a violation.
 
kwired said:
Good point, and I may have overlooked this a time or two. May be that was never how it was intended and the reason for the change in 2014?? ...
...
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The change in 2014 was just catching up with the change a couple of cycles ago that said you could no longer re-bond the grounded conductor at the second building. The only reason the disconnect needed to be service rated was to provide a way to bond the neutral to the GEC at the second building when that was a permitted installation method.

Also after additional though, I believe that 408.36 prohibits using a panelboard with multiple mains.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The change in 2014 was just catching up with the change a couple of cycles ago that said you could no longer re-bond the grounded conductor at the second building. The only reason the disconnect needed to be service rated was to provide a way to bond the neutral to the GEC at the second building when that was a permitted installation method.

Also after additional though, I believe that 408.36 prohibits using a panelboard with multiple mains.
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I think exception 1 does allow it.
 
sub feed

sub feed

If i have sub feed to a out building service rated equipment in the out building is not required ?
 
kwired said:
I think exception 1 does allow it.
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Actually we don't even need the exception for the second building...there should be an OCPD at the start of the feeder that would provide the required overcurrent protection of the panelboard....don't know what I was thinking when I posted that statement.
 
out building

Sub feed to out building will i need a main disconnect at the out building?
 
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