Outdoor Hot Tub 680.42(B)

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augie47

augie47

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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Situation is an outdoor hot tub on a deck with the deck metal hand rials within reach thus not in compliance with 680.42(B)(4)...
Is the solution some means of bonding the railing (if so to what),or replacing it with a non-conducive railing, or other,
 
I had the same issue a while ago and I had to bond each and every rail because it was not connected together.
 
Something like this?

00-cqB3E5dOfCpmnMXgii_qB5ufUSG_P8utb2kXyEqoo4cDrJxhurSFz9_bvdmBGad2
 
That's what I picture from the description given. The way 680 is worded, the perimeter bonding is not needed IF the 4 conditions are met. Since #4 is not met, would you need a perimeter bond under the deck ? ? What would you bond the railings to
 
augie47 said:
That's what I picture from the description given. The way 680 is worded, the perimeter bonding is not needed IF the 4 conditions are met. Since #4 is not met, would you need a perimeter bond under the deck ? ? What would you bond the railings to
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I do believe per code you need the perimeter bonding in the dirt under the deck. The hand rails would have to bonding and connected to the perimeter surface bonding and the motor along with any other metal parts within 5' of the tub.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I do believe per code you need the perimeter bonding in the dirt under the deck. The hand rails would have to bonding and connected to the perimeter surface bonding and the motor along with any other metal parts within 5' of the tub.
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Looks like the deck with the tub is several feet above grade. A perimeter bond wouldn't do anything.
 
jimport said:
Looks like the deck with the tub is several feet above grade. A perimeter bond wouldn't do anything.
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Yeah, that is what one thinks but that is the wording in the code. It doesn't have an exception for tubs on a deck. I actually do believe that the equipotential bonding or perimeter bond could potentially help with stray voltage. Wooden decks do conduct especially if they are wet.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I did this a few years back. They didn't have the ground clamps I wanted so I could go straight up thru them all so I did this monstrosity. Not so proud of it but they needed it done. We also had to bond the gutter which is not visible

View attachment 2559359
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One of Mike Holts videos on Neutral earth voltage, he addresses this.
1st question, why are you being required to bond metal that is isolated from ground? if you have a metal framed sliding door within 5 feet would you bond that too?
2nd why use clamps that are not direct burial rated, when exposed to the elements?
 
acrwc10 said:
One of Mike Holts videos on Neutral earth voltage, he addresses this.
1st question, why are you being required to bond metal that is isolated from ground? if you have a metal framed sliding door within 5 feet would you bond that too?
2nd why use clamps that are not direct burial rated, when exposed to the elements?
Click to expand...
They are DB rated and the rails are somewhat connected to the 4x4 's that go to earth. There are clamps that are rated for db that are not Bronze
 
Seems like a case for some design that has a fancy metal cross piece that looks like it is decorative, but bonds them together and then that one piece is bonded at the bottom.
 
acrwc10 said:
One of Mike Holts videos on Neutral earth voltage, he addresses this.
1st question, why are you being required to bond metal that is isolated from ground? if you have a metal framed sliding door within 5 feet would you bond that too?
2nd why use clamps that are not direct burial rated, when exposed to the elements?
Click to expand...
I thought clamps would also have to be listed for the application.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Yeah, that is what one thinks but that is the wording in the code. It doesn't have an exception for tubs on a deck. I actually do believe that the equipotential bonding or perimeter bond could potentially help with stray voltage. Wooden decks do conduct especially if they are wet.
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How would you bond wood?

What about when someone shoves a tub up in the corner of a patio, with two brick walls, are you supposed to bond the brick?

What about a pergola with cedar post, you supposed to bond that?

Can’t remember the specific article, but I believe it is in section two, mentioned something about bonding not required when a tub was made of no conductive material.
680.42 B 4 is getting to me right now. The tub sets on a concrete which is considered to be grounded. 28” why? I could stand on the ground and bend over the tub and probably immerse my head and shoulders in the water, or the other way.

I can understand, if having any type of metal within 30”. At that point I suppose you bond each individual piece of metal, to the internal ground point on tub, back to main with one continuous run of #8
 
OK Sparky 93 said:
How would you bond wood?

What about when someone shoves a tub up in the corner of a patio, with two brick walls, are you supposed to bond the brick?

What about a pergola with cedar post, you supposed to bond that?

Can’t remember the specific article, but I believe it is in section two, mentioned something about bonding not required when a tub was made of no conductive material.
680.42 B 4 is getting to me right now. The tub sets on a concrete which is considered to be grounded. 28” why? I could stand on the ground and bend over the tub and probably immerse my head and shoulders in the water, or the other way.

I can understand, if having any type of metal within 30”. At that point I suppose you bond each individual piece of metal, to the internal ground point on tub, back to main with one continuous run of #8
Click to expand...
I thought wood was an insulator. Maybe each and every nail and screw should be bonded also.
 
Amps said:
I thought wood was an insulator. Maybe each and every nail and screw should be bonded also.
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So 680.26 equipotential bonding
(A) performance. We can agree on
(1) conductive pools
Manufactured tub is not
(2) perimeter surfaces
First sentence says shall include unpaved surfaces and other types of paving.
Last sentence says for no conductive pool shells bonding at four points shall not be required.

At this point, I don’t think anything needs to be done for a manufactured listed hot tub.

(3) metallic components
Don’t think we have that issue
(4) underwater lighting
Most likely not
(5) metal fittings
Maybe if built in to the ground. But we have a manufactured listed unit. Mess with it or modify it and bye bye listing.
(6) electrical equipment - I believe everything is bonded at the factory, which is satisfied via EGC
(7) Fixed metal parts - this might be the real concern and we are allowed a few exceptions.

Am I misunderstanding?
 
OK Sparky 93 said:
So 680.26 equipotential bonding
(A) performance. We can agree on
(1) conductive pools
Manufactured tub is not
(2) perimeter surfaces
First sentence says shall include unpaved surfaces and other types of paving.
Last sentence says for no conductive pool shells bonding at four points shall not be required.

At this point, I don’t think anything needs to be done for a manufactured listed hot tub.

(3) metallic components
Don’t think we have that issue
(4) underwater lighting
Most likely not
(5) metal fittings
Maybe if built in to the ground. But we have a manufactured listed unit. Mess with it or modify it and bye bye listing.
(6) electrical equipment - I believe everything is bonded at the factory, which is satisfied via EGC
(7) Fixed metal parts - this might be the real concern and we are allowed a few exceptions.

Am I misunderstanding?
Click to expand...
Now I want to jump back to part IV

680.40 Installations shall comply with provisions of part I and IV

680.42 Outdoor installations
No mention of any 125v receptacles.
680.42 Indoor installations
(A) receptacles …. One shall be located not less than 6’ and not more than 10’

This to me says if there is not an outdoor receptacle 6-10’, one needs to be added, because of 680.40. Even though it is under indoor installations, it is require to comply with the provisions of part IV.

When I was an employee, seldom did 680 see daylight. And I am not so sure how often the boss’s eyes landed on it either.

When it’s your own neck, everything that is bound up in this electrical Bible, is sacred.

As well as I did passing an exam, I don’t know everything however that does not negate needing and wanting to be right.
 
If you think wood is an insulator then get it a bit wet and touch a hot conductor. I guarantee you will not think it is an insulator. A wet deck is definitely conductive.
 
OK Sparky 93 said:
When I was an employee, seldom did 680 see daylight. And I am not so sure how often the boss’s eyes landed on it either.

When it’s your own neck, everything that is bound up in this electrical Bible, is sacred.

As well as I did passing an exam, I don’t know everything however that does not negate needing and wanting to be right.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, home owner insurance policies don't usually cover hot tubs, tree houses, or other DIY structures due to trip & fall hazards.

Thats why ignoramuses that operate without GL policy go AWAL, change phone numbers & corporate names.
 
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