outdoor recepts

[DaveBowden]

Are receptacles installed on a porch considered to be in a wet or damp location? The porch is about 16'X 16' with block walls on 3 sides and a full roof. The roof overhangs the porch by 1 1/2 feet. The closest receptacle to the outdoor opening is about 6 feet in. The rest are 10 or more feet from any openings to the outside.
The inspector is telling me I need weatherproof covers ( I agree with that because I think it is a damp location ) and GFI protection ( I don't agree with that because I don't think they are outdoor receptacles ).
Any thoughts?

 

[physis]

Re: outdoor recepts

Check out Location, Damp in article 100.

Edit: I always use GFI for those locations just cause I like the idea.

I don't know if the code says a porch is indoors or outdoors. I think it's outdoors, but if the code doesn't say I think your AHJ gets to make the call.

[ August 11, 2005, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: outdoor recepts

The inspector is telling me I need weatherproof covers ( I agree with that because I think it is a damp location ) and GFI protection ( I don't agree with that because I don't think they are outdoor receptacles ).
Any thoughts?

I have a couple of thoughts and they go a little like this;
If they are not on the inside then they must be on the outside.

If they are in a damp location and need weather proof covers ( I agree with that because I think it is a damp location ) why would you think that they would not need to be GFCI protected?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: outdoor recepts

If you agree you need weather proof covers then your admitting rain might get in them.GFCI would be needed in my opinion.As to weather proof that is questionable,but if wp is required then they must be inuse covers

 

[DaveBowden]

Re: outdoor recepts

Thanks for the input.
1. I don't remember a lot of rain falling in my basement ( another damp location )
2. The code specifically states that receptacles in damp locations need covers that are weatherproof when attachment plug cap is not inserted and the cover is closed ( not in-use covers ).

 

[busman]

Re: outdoor recepts

I have always distinguished between indoors and outdoors based on whether the space can be climate controlled (ie: heated / air-conditioned) with reasonable efficiency.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark

 

[JohnE]

Re: outdoor recepts

Originally posted by jimwalker:
If you agree you need weather proof covers then your admitting rain might get in them.GFCI would be needed in my opinion.As to weather proof that is questionable,but if wp is required then they must be inuse covers

If receptacle is under a roof, then cover does not have to be wp while in use. See 406.8A

 

[allenwayne]

Re: outdoor recepts

210.52 E refers to 210.8 A 3 and unless used for deicing must have gfci protection.As far as In use covers that is a gray area (subject to direct water)
Our Ahj`s say that if on the outer walls (not under cover) Inuse cover always.Then comes the gray area.What is considered subject to direct water ????
For the most part they use a 6 ft rule from front of building if within this area in use cover required.
406.8 A,B 1 + 2 make it even more confusing
in A if there is no attachment plug installed then no in use required if not subject to beating/run off water,but if there is lets say a tv mounted and plugged in then one is required :roll: But b 2 allows a standard wp cover if only used sometimes.ButB 1 says a wp cover shal be used even if there is a cord cap installed even if on the side of a building subject to beating rain ????????? Calgon take me away.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: outdoor recepts

From the 2002 NEC:

406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.

(A) Damp Locations. A receptacle installed outdoors in a location protected from the weather or in other damp locations shall have an enclosure for the receptacle that is weatherproof when the receptacle is covered (attachment plug cap not inserted and receptacle covers closed).
An installation suitable for wet locations shall also be considered suitable for damp locations.
A receptacle shall be considered to be in a location protected from the weather where located under roofed open porches, canopies, marquees, and the like, and will not be subjected to a beating rain or water runoff.

(B) Wet Locations.

(1) 15- and 20-Ampere Outdoor Receptacles. 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles installed outdoors in a wet location shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof whether or not the attachment plug cap is inserted.

(2) Other Receptacles. All other receptacles installed in a wet location shall comply with (a) or (b):
(a) A receptacle installed in a wet location where the product intended to be plugged into it is not attended while in use (e.g., sprinkler system controller, landscape lighting, holiday lights, and so forth) shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof with the attachment plug cap inserted or removed.
(b) A receptacle installed in a wet location where the product intended to be plugged into it will be attended while in use (e.g., portable tools, and so forth) shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof when the attachment plug is removed.

 

[macmikeman]

Re: outdoor recepts

The question on indoors or outdoors in this case is so acedemic. Is it inside an area enclosed by doors? If so it is indoors. Is the porch walled up on all sides and accesable from the exterior with a door? If so - indoors. If not- outdoors. Use a gfi device on all outdoor receptacle outlets in any dwelling. As far as damp or dry - we have wired schools with long (200 ft) hallways open at each end to the exterior. We allways used wp covers on any outlets in the hallway even though they may have been as much as 75 ft inside of the hallway.

 

[haskindm]

Re: outdoor recepts

There is no question but that these receptacles are "outdoors" and all outdoor receptacles at a dwelling require GFCI protection. Are you counting one of these resecptacles as the recepatacle that is required to be installed at the front and rear of a dwelling? If so then you must consider that they are outdoors. Look up article 210.8. If GFCI is required in garages, basements and storage buildings how could they NOT be required on an open porch?!
If you do not want to put GFCI protection on these recepatcles, then enclose the front of the porch. The recepatcles will then be inside. Of course you will then probably need to install another outdoor receptacle to meet 210.52(D).

[ August 12, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: haskindm ]

 

[redfish]

Re: outdoor recepts

porch n.A covered structure forming an entrance to a building.

Sounds like outdoors to me.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: outdoor recepts

Originally posted by DaveBowden:

1. I don't remember a lot of rain falling in my basement ( another damp location )

Then its not a damp location.

Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.

I would think that a very few basements are really damp locations.

 

[DaveBowden]

Re: outdoor recepts

macmikeman
On 1 of the 4 walls around this porch is a 6 foot screened section. O another wall is a 10 foot section which includes a door to the outside. Yes, we installed a switch at this door to control a light fixture outside the door.
haskindm
I didn't say it was an OPEN porch.
No, these receptacles are not used to satisfy the outdoor receptacles requirement. We installed a GFI receptacle with an in-use cover outside for that. I don't think a receptacle where you had to have the homeowner unlock a door to gain access to it would meet the "accessible at grade level" requirements.
Ryan-618
Many old houses (and some newer ones) have to have sump pumps due to water seepage - not rain. They're pretty damp.

 

[redfish]

Re: outdoor recepts

DaveBowden,

On 1 of the 4 walls around this porch is a 6 foot screened section.

If during a rain storm, the wind blows in towards this screen, will water enter the porch area?