outlet in kitchens

[stew]

I Know the requirement for 2 20 amp appliance circuits in kitchens. Did a couple circuit extensions on the same walls and above the exisiting outlets. Customer will use for undercounter plug in lites. got called for it. Inspector says no lites. By the way the lites are not installed. whats to say we were to plug in the toaster in these neew outlets eh? If we hadnt told the inspector they were to be used for lites the would then be perfectly legal no? Maybe we should say we arent gonna install lites and he goes away? Also can I plug in a microwave to these appliance circuits?If not why not? Does thius mean I cant plug in a prtable lamp on the counter? Or a computer like at a built in desk in the kitchen where this desk is served by the appliance circuits?

[ September 22, 2005, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: stew ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: outlet in kitchens

I have been I a couple of lengthy debates in this forum about using the small appliance circuits to supply under cabinet lighting and a couple of them came just short of a blood letting.

It is my opinion that a fixed lighting fixture attached to the underside of a cabinet in any area described in 210.52 (B)(1) and plugged into the small appliance circuit would violate 210.52 (B)(2).

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

There is some debate as to just what a direct connection is. The way I read the term used through out the code is with out the benefit of overcurrent between the point of attachment and load.

I for one stand in agreement with your code enforcement official.

I have personally sent in a proposal for clarification on this matter. Sorry that I can?t give anything better until after the ROP comes out.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: outlet in kitchens

If you'd like to see the bloodletting (all 19 pages), click here. For Electrofelon's second attempt at overloading Mike Holt's servers, click here.

And to tell you the truth, Stew, I don't remember what my final opinion was. I'd say, tell the inspector that the lights aren't going in, and let the homeowner deal with installing them.

[ September 23, 2005, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: outlet in kitchens

That was the most entertaining debate I have read on this forum. My final opinion was that the undercabs should be permitted since they weren't expressly forbidden.

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: outlet in kitchens

You can plug in a microwave as long as it is a counter top unit and not permanently installed.

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: outlet in kitchens

BTW what ever happened to the Electrofelon? Did Mike Holt's IT guy's have him whacked?

 

[allenwayne]

Re: outlet in kitchens

swimming wif da fihes

 

[stew]

Re: outlet in kitchens

magoo a microwavw is an appliance as defined in 100. where does it say it becomes something else when permanently installed?

[ September 23, 2005, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: stew ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: outlet in kitchens

Originally posted by stew:
magoo a microwavw is an appliance as defined in 100. where does it say it becomes something else when permanently installed?

when permanently installed it becomes something else, it becomes permanently installed.

To answer your question I rearranged your question and used the same words.

 

[charlie b]

Re: outlet in kitchens

Electrofelon is still an active member, though he (or she???) has not posted in several months.

I am not going to go back to the blood letting thread, to find out what my opinion was. I'll just blindly agree with whatever I said then, and go back to my coffee.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: outlet in kitchens

Originally posted by charlie b:
Electrofelon is still an active member, though he (or she???) has not posted in several months.

I am not going to go back to the blood letting thread, to find out what my opinion was. I'll just blindly agree with whatever I said then, and go back to my coffee.
You are the best of the best!

 

[iwire]

Re: outlet in kitchens

Did we talk about this before?

I don't recall.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Re: outlet in kitchens

Isn't there an exception that allows 15a switched receptacles in a kitchen and a dining area for the express purpose of controlling portable lighting?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: outlet in kitchens

LawnGuyLandSparky,
Exception #1 to 210.52(B)(1), but I don't see a 15a limitation.
Don

 

[jwelectric]

Re: outlet in kitchens

Originally posted by LawnGuyLandSparky:
Isn't there an exception that allows 15a switched receptacles in a kitchen and a dining area for the express purpose of controlling portable lighting?

210.52 (B) (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

210/70 (A) (1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.

Take both sections together and we see that if a switched receptacle is installed for a lighting outlet it must fulfill two requirements

1) found in 210.52 (B)(1) exception one that it must be supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit
2) it can not be the required lighting out required by 210.70 if it is in the kitchen

A switched receptacle can be installed in the dinning room as long as it is supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit and is in addition to the receptacles required for the small appliances. In other words the wall space (six foot rule) will have to be fulfilled by the small appliance circuit and then one more receptacle can be installed in the dinning room for the required lighting outlet.

 

[stew]

Re: outlet in kitchens

and even when the mic is permanatly installed it is still an appliance. No one can geve me a specific reference on tis or te outlet question. I will therefore just tuck my tail between my legs and run a friggin 20 a circuit all the way from the panel and use irt for ythe nuke and the lites.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: outlet in kitchens

stew w do about 3,000 homes a tear and each gets a hr to the hood.Trim out a wiremold box in cabinet and what ever is installed we are covered.
Don`t get me wrong we charge for the circuit. but we cord connect micro`s/hoods, d/w and disposals, plumber behind we gwt finals without appliances instaled.
what will it take ? 75 - 100 ft of 12/2 a breaker and a box.Don` hold up a dollar for a quarter

 

[iwire]

Re: outlet in kitchens

Originally posted by stew:
and even when the mic is permanently installed it is still an appliance. No one can geve me a specific reference on tis or te outlet question.

I will give it a shot Stew.

Per 210.52(B)(1)The SABCs have to feed all the receptacles required by 210.52(A) and (C)

Per 210.52(B)(2)The SABCs shall serve no other outlets.

The outlet installed above a permanently installed microwave is not one of the 210.52(A) and (C) required outlets.

That being the case you can not power that receptacle from the SABC even though the microwave is still an appliance.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: outlet in kitchens

Originally posted by charlie b:
I am not going to go back to the blood letting thread, to find out what my opinion was. I'll just blindly agree with whatever I said then, and go back to my coffee.

 

[stew]

Re: outlet in kitchens

ok home run now in thx