i have a question about outets that accept aluminum wiring.I have a house that was wired in the 70's with aluminum. the outlets were never changed but the home inspector( the house is being sold)says the outlets are not rated for aluminum.My question is, the outlets are levinton but do not say copper only or cu/al. does this mean they are god for alum?.what did the alum outlets say on the back in the 70's?
outlets
- Thread starter m2oliva
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rick5280
Senior Member
Re: outlets
I would think that the outlets are copper rated only. New ones will accept both, and say so. I don't have a clue what they said 30 years ago. You, nowdays, have two options. Replace all outlets with al approved devices, or install copper pigtails to the al wiring, using approved connectors, and continue to use the existing devices.
Get a couple of estimates, and get it done one way or the other.
Rick Miell
I would think that the outlets are copper rated only. New ones will accept both, and say so. I don't have a clue what they said 30 years ago. You, nowdays, have two options. Replace all outlets with al approved devices, or install copper pigtails to the al wiring, using approved connectors, and continue to use the existing devices.
Get a couple of estimates, and get it done one way or the other.
Rick Miell
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: outlets
Rick good repy i did wire houses in al when i was young :roll: there was alot of contraversey back in the day!!!!!! also rewired many homes years later one that i wired originally.If the devices dont have al only or cu / al then they need to be replaced ......
Rick good repy i did wire houses in al when i was young :roll: there was alot of contraversey back in the day!!!!!! also rewired many homes years later one that i wired originally.If the devices dont have al only or cu / al then they need to be replaced ......
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: outlets
Good call by the home inspector. That is something I would have missed. Ask him if he would be interested in teaching me some of tricks he uses to catch violations that do not appear in the NFPA 70. I hope this is not proprietary information.
Mike P.
Good call by the home inspector. That is something I would have missed. Ask him if he would be interested in teaching me some of tricks he uses to catch violations that do not appear in the NFPA 70. I hope this is not proprietary information.
Mike P.
Re: outlets
It appears, the receptacles in this dwelling, were legal in the 70s.
I don't remember the details of the reason for requiring a change in the connection material. It was likely due to the number of failures through oxidation. This change was likely instigated by the aluminum manufacturers, to retain the market share.
I have seen a few houses with fire damage from oxidized terminals igniting the framing members.
It appears, the receptacles in this dwelling, were legal in the 70s.
I don't remember the details of the reason for requiring a change in the connection material. It was likely due to the number of failures through oxidation. This change was likely instigated by the aluminum manufacturers, to retain the market share.
I have seen a few houses with fire damage from oxidized terminals igniting the framing members.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: outlets
Mike,
Is it a fair call, though? The home inspector, arguably, is going to open and examine the service center, which will yield the presence of small gauge aluminum branch circuit wiring (in most cases). But the only way the home inspector could call out the period device terminal incompatability is by taking a bunch of cover plates off, or, by assuming based on year built. Either way, isn't that crossing a boundary? Short of X-ray vision, how else can the inspector examine the contents of closed boxes? Shouldn't the home inspector, instead, call for an electrical certification (or equiv.) by a licensed elec. contractor?
Bennie,
Part of my first years of electrical work involved new residential construction wired with small gauge aluminum branch circuits. There was a world wide copper shortage lasting almost a decade, then, that drove copper prices high enough that the aluminum solution became the choice for the price competative contractor. We were taught to be cautious about stripping the conductors, avoiding nicking, but that was it. No one gave a thought to the terminals of the outlets. Back stab "speed wires" were the new rage. Why worry. After all, the outlet is listed as an outlet, so it must be ok to connect it to UL listed wires
I shudder when I recall just how many terminations my own hands made, let alone, how many, across the country, were made to #12 & #10 Al.
There were many different specific problems with the method. For this thread, the most important seem to be:</font>
Mike,
Is it a fair call, though? The home inspector, arguably, is going to open and examine the service center, which will yield the presence of small gauge aluminum branch circuit wiring (in most cases). But the only way the home inspector could call out the period device terminal incompatability is by taking a bunch of cover plates off, or, by assuming based on year built. Either way, isn't that crossing a boundary? Short of X-ray vision, how else can the inspector examine the contents of closed boxes? Shouldn't the home inspector, instead, call for an electrical certification (or equiv.) by a licensed elec. contractor?
Bennie,
Part of my first years of electrical work involved new residential construction wired with small gauge aluminum branch circuits. There was a world wide copper shortage lasting almost a decade, then, that drove copper prices high enough that the aluminum solution became the choice for the price competative contractor. We were taught to be cautious about stripping the conductors, avoiding nicking, but that was it. No one gave a thought to the terminals of the outlets. Back stab "speed wires" were the new rage. Why worry. After all, the outlet is listed as an outlet, so it must be ok to connect it to UL listed wires
I shudder when I recall just how many terminations my own hands made, let alone, how many, across the country, were made to #12 & #10 Al.
There were many different specific problems with the method. For this thread, the most important seem to be:</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The device terminal metal had a significantly different thermal coefficient of linear expansion than aluminum, in effect, over tightening and then loosening the termination.</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The alloy of aluminum used during the period, when nicked, tended to develop a migrating crack extending off the nick and through the conductor.</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The small gauge aluminum did not get any NoAlOx, so if not in a dry location, would oxidize.</font>
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: outlets
Al
I was being sarcastic!
Mike P.
Al
I was being sarcastic!
Mike P.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: outlets
Ahh,
I missed the tonal inflection. . .
Ahh,
I missed the tonal inflection. . .
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: outlets
I agree with Bennie with the fact that when this house was manufactured it met code requirments of the time period. with that said under what law can this home inspector require that you replace every device? Yes it is a very good sugestion and would make this house much safer for the new owners. but this requirment would have to fall under a volentary sugestion and not a requirment. And the cost should be shared by both interested parties and should be portrayed as a sugestion not a requirment. Of course the prospective buyers could back out of the deal and you could not sell the house but I think these home inspectors need to know what they can require and what they cannot.
I agree with Bennie with the fact that when this house was manufactured it met code requirments of the time period. with that said under what law can this home inspector require that you replace every device? Yes it is a very good sugestion and would make this house much safer for the new owners. but this requirment would have to fall under a volentary sugestion and not a requirment. And the cost should be shared by both interested parties and should be portrayed as a sugestion not a requirment. Of course the prospective buyers could back out of the deal and you could not sell the house but I think these home inspectors need to know what they can require and what they cannot.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: outlets
Home Inspectors are well intentioned however the majority are not qualified to inspect electric. I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of electricains are not qualified to inspect (residential) electric. The reason I say this is every home I go in to do work or stop by, new construction, to get design ideas, would fail an electrical inspection, if performed by me.
I do not mind making money repairing items they require to be repaired. The problem is they are not violations.
Mike P.
Home Inspectors are well intentioned however the majority are not qualified to inspect electric. I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of electricains are not qualified to inspect (residential) electric. The reason I say this is every home I go in to do work or stop by, new construction, to get design ideas, would fail an electrical inspection, if performed by me.
I do not mind making money repairing items they require to be repaired. The problem is they are not violations.
Mike P.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: outlets
PS
Here is an easy one. No bonding of the hot waterlines.
Mike P.
PS
Here is an easy one. No bonding of the hot waterlines.
Mike P.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: outlets
I was thinking the same thing. :roll:
[ April 26, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
I was thinking the same thing. :roll:
[ April 26, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: outlets
I know how that sounds.
I am just going by what I see here in central Ohio.
It is not that I am that good, it is that that many (and I will say again residential) electricians do not understand or have been taught the most fundamental elements of basic electricity.
You come to Columbus Ohio and pick any home built in the last xxx years and I will show you paralled conductors, improper bonding and maybe grounds and neutrals under the same lug.
I do not pretent to know 1/10th of 1% of what others here know. I do understand what I read.
Not making fun or light of this.... The second time in as many years the Mayor of The City of Columbus had an electrical fire. I do not know about the first but they say the second was in the bathroom. Supposely all new wiring. They clain the the vent fan cause the fire. It was the wiring coming into contact with the duct work. It smoldered for hours under the new insulation.
All I am saying is that what I have seen is lacking the quality of work that I know the others here produce.
Mike P.
I know how that sounds.
I am just going by what I see here in central Ohio.
It is not that I am that good, it is that that many (and I will say again residential) electricians do not understand or have been taught the most fundamental elements of basic electricity.
You come to Columbus Ohio and pick any home built in the last xxx years and I will show you paralled conductors, improper bonding and maybe grounds and neutrals under the same lug.
I do not pretent to know 1/10th of 1% of what others here know. I do understand what I read.
Not making fun or light of this.... The second time in as many years the Mayor of The City of Columbus had an electrical fire. I do not know about the first but they say the second was in the bathroom. Supposely all new wiring. They clain the the vent fan cause the fire. It was the wiring coming into contact with the duct work. It smoldered for hours under the new insulation.
All I am saying is that what I have seen is lacking the quality of work that I know the others here produce.
Mike P.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: outlets
Mike here in Indiana we do have some of the same problems, and it is not the ones that strive to get it right, it is the contractors that hire off the street and don't provide the necessary training. this is a big problem and sometimes I feel for our inspectors as they have to watch for these guys as they will cheat to get a job done as fast as they can as this is the only thing that matters to the boss. now this is not every contractor but there are a lot as there are still places in Indiana that you don't even need a licenses. and are not even inspected. hopefully the new state license's bill will pass and this will disappear and we can get back to having qualified electricians and not just anyone who thinks they are one.
A few years ago there was a boom in the building and we started seeing anyone with a pickup and a garage getting into the electrical trade it was a nightmare. as most of these didn't even know how to wire a 3-way much less a whole house but without any kind of state license's it happened and many of us had to tell these builders that it was going to cost them for us to go back and fix the mistakes. and there was many but as time went on many of these weekend worrier's got weeded out and the builders realized that for quality work they had watch who they hired.
Mike here in Indiana we do have some of the same problems, and it is not the ones that strive to get it right, it is the contractors that hire off the street and don't provide the necessary training. this is a big problem and sometimes I feel for our inspectors as they have to watch for these guys as they will cheat to get a job done as fast as they can as this is the only thing that matters to the boss. now this is not every contractor but there are a lot as there are still places in Indiana that you don't even need a licenses. and are not even inspected. hopefully the new state license's bill will pass and this will disappear and we can get back to having qualified electricians and not just anyone who thinks they are one.
A few years ago there was a boom in the building and we started seeing anyone with a pickup and a garage getting into the electrical trade it was a nightmare. as most of these didn't even know how to wire a 3-way much less a whole house but without any kind of state license's it happened and many of us had to tell these builders that it was going to cost them for us to go back and fix the mistakes. and there was many but as time went on many of these weekend worrier's got weeded out and the builders realized that for quality work they had watch who they hired.
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