Outside contractor crossed a line?

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RLyons

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We are in the process of doing a 4 unit condo which has CSST piping from nipple off the gas meter and it is in out contract to provide the bonding. The service is approx. 10' from the meter stack so I ran the #6 from the service ground rod to bonding clamps which I placed on the customer side of each meter. I visited the sight today to find out a regional utility locating company worker removed the meter bonds and proceeded to tell the GC it was wrong and was a explosion hazard. I contacted the worker asking why he removed the bond and he stated meters should never be bonded and wanted to know why I would do such a thing and who told me this was OK. He went on to say engineers, utility, Building inspectors all agree with him this is a bad idea and wanted answers. I contacted the csst company reps all of which said this gentleman was misinformed and provided me with the name of the state code writer regarding the use and bonding requirements of csst. So my question is was a line crossed? Would you pursue this further? ie. contact supervisor, send a bill for my time?
 
RLyons said:
We are in the process of doing a 4 unit condo which has CSST piping from nipple off the gas meter and it is in out contract to provide the bonding. The service is approx. 10' from the meter stack so I ran the #6 from the service ground rod to bonding clamps which I placed on the customer side of each meter. I visited the sight today to find out a regional utility locating company worker removed the meter bonds and proceeded to tell the GC it was wrong and was a explosion hazard. I contacted the worker asking why he removed the bond and he stated meters should never be bonded and wanted to know why I would do such a thing and who told me this was OK. He went on to say engineers, utility, Building inspectors all agree with him this is a bad idea and wanted answers. I contacted the csst company reps all of which said this gentleman was misinformed and provided me with the name of the state code writer regarding the use and bonding requirements of csst. So my question is was a line crossed? Would you pursue this further? ie. contact supervisor, send a bill for my time?
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In my view the locator contractor was way out of line, even if he was correct in his opinion. I say you did the right thing by bonding it as described. Maybe use this as an opportunity to enlighten the parties involved on all the recent research and literature out there on this subject.
 
Before doing anything else, ask this guy to put it in writing that the meters shouldn't be bonded and also that he removed the bonds himself.

No matter where you go from here, that documentation will help you.
 
Mesh said:
Before doing anything else, ask this guy to put it in writing that the meters shouldn't be bonded and also that he removed the bonds himself.

No matter where you go from here, that documentation will help you.
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Especially if the locator does not oblige, have the GC prepare and sign a documenting of the ordeal.
 
Chances are that the guy will never put it in writing. It's funny how some people will be so adamant about how they are correct- until you ask them to put their name on it permanently. :p
 
RLyons said:
We are in the process of doing a 4 unit condo which has CSST piping from nipple off the gas meter and it is in out contract to provide the bonding. The service is approx. 10' from the meter stack so I ran the #6 from the service ground rod to bonding clamps which I placed on the customer side of each meter. I visited the sight today to find out a regional utility locating company worker removed the meter bonds and proceeded to tell the GC it was wrong and was a explosion hazard. I contacted the worker asking why he removed the bond and he stated meters should never be bonded and wanted to know why I would do such a thing and who told me this was OK. He went on to say engineers, utility, Building inspectors all agree with him this is a bad idea and wanted answers. I contacted the csst company reps all of which said this gentleman was misinformed and provided me with the name of the state code writer regarding the use and bonding requirements of csst. So my question is was a line crossed? Would you pursue this further? ie. contact supervisor, send a bill for my time?
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Definitely persue this. Bonding is a safety issue; he could wind up getting somebody hurt or worse! Drive this home by billing for the time lost, including persuing the code info. This will do three things, put the code issue on the table, highlight his tampering with your work, and push the economic impact of his meddling. Drop a note to the utility, the state board that supervises them, and the state agency that oversees electrical work. I wouldn't make a crusade out of it, but the more people who know, the less likely anything is to stick to you. Don't even bother trying to talk to the offender or get him to sign anything.
 
I wonder how many unbonded systems are out there because of this guy? His supervisor and supervisor's supervisor need to know about this. I'd make the approach on the premise of concern for existing hazards for which their company will have liability.
 
RLyons said:
We are in the process of doing a 4 unit condo which has CSST piping from nipple off the gas meter and it is in out contract to provide the bonding. The service is approx. 10' from the meter stack so I ran the #6 from the service ground rod to bonding clamps which I placed on the customer side of each meter. I visited the sight today to find out a regional utility locating company worker removed the meter bonds and proceeded to tell the GC it was wrong and was a explosion hazard. I contacted the worker asking why he removed the bond and he stated meters should never be bonded and wanted to know why I would do such a thing and who told me this was OK. He went on to say engineers, utility, Building inspectors all agree with him this is a bad idea and wanted answers. I contacted the csst company reps all of which said this gentleman was misinformed and provided me with the name of the state code writer regarding the use and bonding requirements of csst. So my question is was a line crossed? Would you pursue this further? ie. contact supervisor, send a bill for my time?
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First, you were not bonding meters, you were bonding customer side gas piping, which needs to be done and often is done through EGC conductor to appliances that the gas line connects to anyway even if there is no CSST. The presence of CSST just changes methods that may be employed to do so.
 
mgookin said:
I wonder how many unbonded systems are out there because of this guy? His supervisor and supervisor's supervisor need to know about this. I'd make the approach on the premise of concern for existing hazards for which their company will have liability.
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+1
Misinformed or correct as his opinion may have been, there is a world of difference between expressing that opinion to the GC, the AHJ or the homeowner and removing the bond wires on the customer side of the gas service. The latter is overstepping no matter how you look at it, particularly if he is not a licensed electrician!

"Utility locating company worker" could be anyone who can handle a detector and read drawings.
 
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GoldDigger said:
+1
Misinformed or correct as his opinion may have been, there is a world of difference between expressing that opinion to the GC, the AHJ or the homeowner and removing the bond wires on the customer side of the gas service. The latter is overstepping no matter how you look at it, particularly if he is not a licensed electrician!

"Utility locating company worker" could be anyone who can handle a detector and read drawings.
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Though I think the guy is wrong why does he need to be a licensed electrician to have any say in this matter? Maybe he has some kind of gas piping licensing (don't really know what it would be called), and why wouldn't that make him somewhat of an authority from the gas piping side of things? BTW I still think he was wrong, even if he knows gas.
 
kwired said:
Though I think the guy is wrong why does he need to be a licensed electrician to have any say in this matter? Maybe he has some kind of gas piping licensing (don't really know what it would be called), and why wouldn't that make him somewhat of an authority from the gas piping side of things? BTW I still think he was wrong, even if he knows gas.
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I never said he had to be a licensed electrician to express an opinion. But I think he would have to be to actually modify the installed wiring on his own rather then just telling the GC to get it done.
It looks like in this case he was not even there on behalf the gas company to do an inspection before connecting gas service.

Even inspectors do not correct things, they have the person whose name is on the permit correct them.
 
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GoldDigger said:
I never said he had to be a licensed electrician to express an opinion. But I think he would have to be to actually modify the installed wiring on his own rather then just telling the GC to get it done.
It looks like in this case he was not even there on behalf the gas company to do an inspection before connecting gas service.

Even inspectors do not correct things, they have the person whose name is on the permit correct them.
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Is he an employee or agent of the utility company?

The power company can come and install or remove a meter, connect or reconnect the overhead drops, etc. I assume the gas company's men can also do some work on their own.

Not that I am defending the guy. just sayin...
 
GoldDigger said:
+1
Misinformed or correct as his opinion may have been, there is a world of difference between expressing that opinion to the GC, the AHJ or the homeowner and removing the bond wires on the customer side of the gas service. The latter is overstepping no matter how you look at it, particularly if he is not a licensed electrician!

"Utility locating company worker" could be anyone who can handle a detector and read drawings.
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I agree. Bonding is electrical work. This guy dosen't know his Fuel Gas Codes.
 
The only reason the gentleman was there was to mark underground utilities prior to a trench being dug (811). The GC stated he didn't want to get involved in a "pissing match" but I am sure he wants to make sure the electrical company he hired is competent. The CSST company sent me a copy of the state building code so I think the best course of action would be to send a copy to this gentleman and his supervisor with detailed description of the incident.
 
RLyons said:
The only reason the gentleman was there was to mark underground utilities prior to a trench being dug (811). The GC stated he didn't want to get involved in a "pissing match" but I am sure he wants to make sure the electrical company he hired is competent. The CSST company sent me a copy of the state building code so I think the best course of action would be to send a copy to this gentleman and his supervisor with detailed description of the incident.
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His job was to locate underground lines. If he sees something he has a concern about, he should maybe report it to either electrical or gas inspectors instead of taking it upon himself to make corrections.

What he did was a little like saying I saw you make some moving violations while you were in your car, since you are a hazard to others on the road, I am going to remove the tires from your car so you can't drive it.
 
RLyons said:
The only reason the gentleman was there was to mark underground utilities prior to a trench being dug (811). The GC stated he didn't want to get involved in a "pissing match" but I am sure he wants to make sure the electrical company he hired is competent. The CSST company sent me a copy of the state building code so I think the best course of action would be to send a copy to this gentleman and his supervisor with detailed description of the incident.
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I would compile all documentation and present it to his supervisors with a bill for the time spent correcting his stupidity. He, even as dumb as he is, has now planted a seed of distrust in the mind of the GC. I would not rest until I had 2 things. A written apology from his company to the general contractor explaining that he had no rights or authority to make any corrections, modifications or statements to or about any work on the site. And a nice check.
 
If it happened to me, I would have the guy arrested. He is a "Locater". He is not on your payroll and has no business touching your work. He put you in a lible position. Even an electric inspector cannot touch your work!
 
CONDUIT said:
Check out the attached video. Don't know why but I never even thought about using emory cloth on pipe before attaching the clamp!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SvS40oYMiE
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The "teeth" of the clamp are supposed to make this unnecessary, but it still doesn't hurt to do so. An exterior gas pipe however is likely supposed to have some kind of corrosion protection (usually paint), so by using emory cloth you may be creating a violation for the gas guys.
 
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