outside feeders

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JDB3

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Article 225.30 talks of the number of feeders to a building / structure. I would appreciate clarification of this. Is it permissible to have 2 200 amp panels & go underground to a residence, come up from the slab & have 2 200 amp inside the structure ? {There is a rigid metal conduit from the utility company's pedestal to their meter socket and then rigid nipples to the 2 200 amp feed through panels (200 amp main in each panel)}. :? Thank you :happyyes:
 
jumper said:
Your building is supplied by a service, not a feeder, so 230.2 would apply here.

See part VI for additional requirements. Your set up seems compliant.
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If the supply comes through two 200A panels separate from the building and wires go underground from those two panels to two additional 200A panels inside the building, how can those two sets of wires be service conductors rather than feeders?

I agree that the supply to the building ultimately originates from a single service, but the service wires never get to the building.

Admittedly, the OP's description is far from clear, but I read it as there being a total of four 200A panels involved.
 
GoldDigger said:
If the supply comes through two 200A panels separate from the building and wires go underground from those two panels to two additional 200A panels inside the building, how can those two sets of wires be service conductors rather than feeders?

I agree that the supply to the building ultimately originates from a single service, but the service wires never get to the building.

Admittedly, the OP's description is far from clear, but I read it as there being a total of four 200A panels involved.
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This is what I read from the OP:

XFRMR---service conductors---meter---2 main panels with main breakers grouped on building---two feeders from panels to sub-panels inside.

Seems compliant.
 
jumper said:
This is what I read from the OP:

XFRMR---service conductors---meter---2 main panels with main breakers grouped on building---two feeders from panels to sub-panels inside.

Seems compliant.
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If the two main panels are on the outside of the building, I agree, no problem.
But with the OP's description of the wiring from the first set of panels to the second set of panels going underground, I am not as convinced as you that the first set of panels is on the outside of the same building.
 
GoldDigger said:
If the two main panels are on the outside of the building, I agree, no problem.
But with the OP's description of the wiring from the first set of panels to the second set of panels going underground, I am not as convinced as you that the first set of panels is on the outside of the same building.
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Yeah, OP was pretty vague on his set-up, clarification would be nice.
 
I will attempt to clarify the set-up. The utility company goes from their pad-mount transformer underground to their pad-mount pedestal. From their pedestal, I install a 3" galvanized rigid nipple to the meter socket & then go to the Two 200 amp panels, each with 200 amp main breaker. From these panels (close to the road) I go underground, come up through the slab inside the structure (house) to Two 200 amp panels. I do this because of the load & number of circuits for the structure.

PEC 320 underground rack 001 (2).jpg
 
Based on the theory that your "meter loop rack" meets the NEC definition of a "structure", the installation you describe, IMO, would be a violation of 225.30
 
Parallel runs of wire from the two panels on the pedestal would still, IMHO, not satisfy the code even if you joined them together before splitting them off again to the two inside panels.
In any case, if the pedestal is the service point, you should be running both neutral and EGC to the house and need a ground electrode at the pedestal.
If your utility can make a convincing argument that the service point is actually at the inside panels, then you would be OK and would run only hots and neutral to the inside panels.
Two sets of service conductors and two grouped disconnects would not make it two services.
 
GoldDigger said:
Parallel runs of wire from the two panels on the pedestal would still, IMHO, not satisfy the code even if you joined them together before splitting them off again to the two inside panels.
In any case, if the pedestal is the service point, you should be running both neutral and EGC to the house and need a ground electrode at the pedestal.
If your utility can make a convincing argument that the service point is actually at the inside panels, then you would be OK and would run only hots and neutral to the inside panels.
Two sets of service conductors and two grouped disconnects would not make it two services.
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I agree, if your POCO has no objection to you running straight from the meter pedestal to the house (with no panels at the meter) , the two runs would qualify as one service under the wording of 230.2. IMO you would still need to group your two disconnects.
 
augie47 said:
I agree, if your POCO has no objection to you running straight from the meter pedestal to the house (with no panels at the meter) , the two runs would qualify as one service under the wording of 230.2. IMO you would still need to group your two disconnects.
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And in that case it would be up to POCO to decide whether to have a ground at the meter bonded to the neutral or just grounding the meter base, yes?
 
I believe 250.80 would require the meter be bonded to the grounded conductor.
 
Inside the house the two panels are side by side. With this type of service, I run a ground wire with the hots & neutrals, along with bonding to the re-bar in the slab & a ground rod.
Their pedestal has their ground rod inside of it. Their requirements have changed where now they require a 3/4" X 10' ground rod with #2 copper at the rack service (which would be no more than 2 feet from theirs).
I realize the code limits the number of feeders, the utility company has been approving this set up for years.
Also, if the rack (at their pedestal) is not classified as a structure, then would multiple feeders be allowed? :?
Also, in their 200 amp services, they attach a combination "meter socket/disconnect", on their pedestal with no provision (and they do not want) a ground wire in it. The feeder is then ran underground to the house/structure.:huh:
 
I see at least a couple different ways of doing it:

1. Set the meter and two panels on the outside of the home, then run two feeders into the building.

2. Run one 400 amp feeder from the meter/disconnect into the home and then tap to each 200 amp panel.
 
Even setting aside the question of what gets bonded where, I don't see how running two sets of wires into the building could be code compliant. 225.30 has already been cited as the article of importance. I don't think any of its exceptions apply.
 
JDB3 said:
Is it permissible to have 2 200 amp panels & go underground to a residence, come up from the slab & have 2 200 amp inside the structure ?
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What is the purpose of the two outside panels? Do they have branch circuit breakers that feed loads outside the building? Do they do nothing other than feed the panels inside the building?

 
charlie b said:
Even setting aside the question of what gets bonded where, I don't see how running two sets of wires into the building could be code compliant. 225.30 has already been cited as the article of importance. I don't think any of its exceptions apply.
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Charlieb:
As noted in post#10, the only way I can see two sets of conductors would be as service conductors (no disconnects at the pedestal) and apply 230.2.
Do you agree ?

[FONT=&quot]230.2 Number of Services.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permit-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ted in 230.2(A) through (D). For the purpose of 230.40,Exception No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors, 1/0 AWG and larger, running to the same location and connected together at their supply end but not connected together at their load end shall be considered to be supplying one service[/FONT]
 
augie47 said:
As noted in post#10, the only way I can see two sets of conductors would be as service conductors (no disconnects at the pedestal) and apply 230.2. Do you agree ?
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I didn't understand the comment originally, but now I do. And yes I agree. That brings us back to the question of what the two outside panels have inside them, and what else (if anything) they serve other than the two inside panels.

 
The 2 outside panels serve as a disconnecting means at the utility company's meter. They require (in this case) that the meter & disconnecting means be by the road where their pedestal is located. During construction there is receptacles feed from these panels for the different sub-contractors. Upon completion of job, these receptacles are removed.

It is then up to others to take the power to where it will be utilized.
 
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