Outside recepts

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sparkster

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OK here go's hit me but not to hard. Here in CA the ark fault thing came in, in 2002 and I am not used to it yet. I wire some larger homes and in reference to outside plugs I have gotten away from an circuit just for them with one GFI and loading the rest. I started jumping to the outside location from an close interior source such as living room plug, somehting not designated by code for an app or the like, Well came off an bedroom arc fault, installed a gfi not thinking in the rough and of course you can geuss the rest, the Inspector came through in the final to trip the gfi and it tripped the arc fault breaker, bad electician. I am back to running the outside on it's own circuit and line the whole circuit through the outlet box and installing a GFI at each location. What do you quality Electrical Contractors out there do, I know there are lots of way's to achieve this, and some are more expensive and as I am always bidding against some johny come lately, you see what I am talking about, thanks
 
Re: Outside recepts

There is nothing wrong with serving gfci receptacles off afci protected circuits. There is also nothing wrong with serving an outside receptacle from an interior circuit. This includes by code or by design.

[ March 05, 2005, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
 
Re: Outside recepts

This does point to an interesting inspections issue, in my mind.

Inspectors have been testing GFCIs with plugin devices for decades now. Normal testing procedure. . .maybe also test with the device test and reset buttons, but definitely use an independent tester.

Well, when that GFCI is located on an AFCI protected circuit, which, as Bryan states is perfectly NEC compliant, the independent GFI tester is going to cause problems.

If the inspector blames the electrician's wiring for the problem, the inspector should cite chapter and verse. Otherwise, it seems to me, the only test procedure the inspector can use is the GFCI test and reset.
 
Re: Outside recepts

I'm suprised a GFI tester tripped an arc fault. I thought the ground-fault sensing portion of the AFCI was in a way higher range than a GFI.

As far as these things go, I have found that the physical size of a GFI in the boxes I use for cut-ins :D

And bedrooms do not have to be dedicated. ;)

[ March 05, 2005, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Outside recepts

Don't forget that you can always run a separate crkt for the exterior outlets and use a GFI breaker in the box. Maybe more expensive, but will probably last longer than the GFI outside.
 
Re: Outside recepts

Interesting note on this, Jeff Fitzloff (Idaho Electrical Inspection Supervisor) came to our class(2nd year appr.) and spoke. He mentioned that some of the new (don't remember what brand) AFCI breakers are also GFI's now. They found this out totally by accident using one of those plug in testers. They contacted the mfg. to find this out. So in theory if you did come of one of these new AFCI's on the bedroom circuit and fed a outside receptacle you wouldn't need to install a GFI receptacle? Of course as long as you had the documentation to show inspector.
 
Re: Outside recepts

I agree as long as it is listed as a combination device. All AFCIs are also a GFCI but they are not calibrated into the Class A range and listed. There are some that are indeed listed as a combination type and may be used that way. :D
 
Re: Outside recepts

From the UL White Book

" ARC FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTERS, COMBINATION TYPE (AWAH)
This category covers arc fault circuit interrupters that have been evaluated to provide protection of the branch circuit wiring,feeder wiring, or both, and cord sets and power-supply cords connected to receptacles against the unwanted effects of arcing."

Arc Fault Interrupters have GFCI protection at a value of greater than Class A types and cannot be used as the required GFCI protection required in the NEC for personnel protection (Type A, 4-6 miliamp range).

The combination types they require for 2008 are combination type AFCI as mentioned above found in the UL White Book. The combination type provides ARC FAULT protection to the branch circuit wiring and the cord sets plugged into the receptacle. Something the current AFCI circuit breakers required today do not provide.

The White Book has 6 different types of AFCI protection devices listed, but now only one type is required and installed. The second type (combination type) is now available, but not required to be installed, until 2008

[ March 13, 2005, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
 
Re: Outside recepts

I would aviod coming off an afci only because of the confushion it might cause the home owner.They often have enough problems understanding simple gfci receptacles.While it is legal it might cost you some unwanted warranty work.I am a firm believer in the KISS system
 
Re: Outside recepts

Given that NFPA 72 11.6.3 (5) prohibits smoke alarms from being on a GFCI of any type, (with the exception of whole house protection) how is the NFPA going to address this since dwelling bedrooms require AFCI protection and the AFCI/GFCI combo units are going to be the norm.

;)

Roger
 
Re: Outside recepts

Originally posted by gvmv:
Interesting note on this, Jeff Fitzloff (Idaho Electrical Inspection Supervisor) came to our class(2nd year appr.) and spoke. He mentioned that some of the new (don't remember what brand) AFCI breakers are also GFI's now. They found this out totally by accident using one of those plug in testers. They contacted the mfg. to find this out. So in theory if you did come of one of these new AFCI's on the bedroom circuit and fed a outside receptacle you wouldn't need to install a GFI receptacle? Of course as long as you had the documentation to show inspector.
Click to expand...
That's scary. :eek:

No offense to you or Jeff Fitzloff (I don't know either) but one or both of you did not either understand or convey the properties of AFCI breakers to the point of potential injury to persons or property.
 
Re: Outside recepts

Actually i do not see why we would not allow smokes if on dedicated circuit be allowed without any afci protection.There are no cords or other loads to cause a danger.Perhaps when they changed it from receptacles to all outlets they did not think about smokes getting caught up in that picture.Lets keep in mind what dangers the bedroom had to require afci protection.Were there any fires caused from the detectors in bedrooms that were not equally a problem in other rooms or hallways ?
I think if i was wiring homes and using a dedicated circuit anyways that i would use a 10 amp breaker and aviod the problem of an afci breaker and its cost.Also lets the inspector off the hook.And what stops us from putting only bedroom fans and fixed lights on a 10 amp breaker ? The load from 3 or 4 ceiling fans with light kits would not over load a 10 amp breaker.
 
Re: Outside recepts

Hi Sparkster, The real problem surfaces when the gardener starts the electric lawn mower on the outside receptacle. Guess what...that'll trip the inside AFCI circuit everytime. :D

rbj, Seattle
 
Re: Outside recepts

Hi George, Saw your garage GFCI to outside receptacles. Reminds me of a call I got last year about a garage door not opening and the owner was locked out of the house.

Seems to be the gardner (he gets around) had plugged in hedge trimmers to the outside receptacle that was connected to the garage GFCI and door opener circuit. As the door shut (behind the owner ducking out) and the trimmer turned on, the GFCI tripped. Bummer.
rbj, Seattle
 
Re: Outside recepts

I don't GFI protect the garage door opener outlet. It qualifies under both exceptions for garages in 210.8.

I pull a 14-3 switchleg for lighting, red leg lighting, black leg garage door opener. :)
 
Re: Outside recepts

There are a few manufactures that do make a AFCI/GFCI (5ma) listed for personal protection.
Here is just one:

FIRE-GUARD AFCI can also be equipped with 5 mA ground fault protection to protect from personal shock hazards. Now, there is a residential circuit breaker that provides protection from arcing faults, conductor damage due to thermal overloads and short circuits, as well as 5 mA ground fault protection in one integrated design.
Click to expand...
And can be found here:
Note the listed price :eek:
Cuttler Hammer AFCI/GFCI

Click the online catalog and then enter the breaker type (AFCI/GFCI) and rating
 
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