Outsourcing estimating?

[ishium 80439]

I have a few commercial projects sitting in front of me that need numbers put on them and I have very little experience estimating these (the resi projects I handle myself). On small projects I'll just sit down w/ the National Electrical Estimator and/or Means and do manual take offs but with larger projects it seems insane to try to do this manually. I had an estimator that I would use from time to time but he has been to busy lately to help me out.

Times are such that I feel that my numbers need to be dialed in and it is perhaps not the best time to be learning a new skill that could cost me jobs. Does anyone else outsource their bids? In the past I have seen ads in EC&M for national companies that will bid for you but it seems that w/o knowing local regulations/ conditions/ standards etc that this could be a real bad idea. Any other thoughts on how to get these bids out the door? I am getting looks from this one contractor and my MIA estimator has made such that I have not been able to give them a quote on the last 3 projects they sent me. I now have 2 more that they are looking at and want to get them a number so they don't get the impression that I am not interested.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[g@friendly]

ask the supply house to help you. I have them do take off and they bid the material etc.. both Graybar and Warshaur does it for me. You must check it anyway no matter who does the take off.

 

[shockin]

I would square foot it and come pretty darn close. But some people say this is impossible.

 

[g@friendly]

THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!
romex or bx
metal studs or wood
ceiling height
floor type
man to much to look at

 

[celtic]

I have a few commercial projects sitting in front of me that need numbers put on them and I have very little experience estimating these

I would square foot it and come pretty darn close. But some people say this is impossible.

How would you sq. ft a 100,000 cubic ft. warehouse?
:grin:

How does a 10,000 sq. ft Dunkin Donuts compare to a 10,000 sg. ft PEP boys?

Commercial is a much different animal than residential.

 

[g@friendly]

Well put again!

 

[480sparky]

Many outsourcing estimating outfits require more information than just a set of prints and specs.

Some will even ask for your balance sheet, business plan, etc.

 

[celtic]

Well put again!

It's a gift :smile:


LOL

 

[jmsbrush]

I would square foot it and come pretty darn close. But some people say this is impossible.

So If you charge $4.00 a square foot for example or even 10.00. Panel work will be real cheap!

 

[ceb58]

I had to come up with a quick bid on commercial one time that I really didn't care if I got or not. Guesstimated pipe, # of openings, wire and service. I had supply house price out material and then I multiplied material cost times 3. I got the job and made goooood money.
I live near a large retirement community I have thought about advertising to see if I could find some one that has experience in estimating and would like to do it part time for a % if awarded the job. This may be something to consider.

 

[shockin]

How would you sq. ft a 100,000 cubic ft. warehouse?
:grin:

How does a 10,000 sq. ft Dunkin Donuts compare to a 10,000 sg. ft PEP boys?

Commercial is a much different animal than residential.

For those whom are unfamiliar with sq foot pricing, you don't have a fixed square foot price that covers all types of work. I only sq foot commercial, and it is based on many years of historic data. A large church is different then a small church which is different then a resturant, which is different then a warehouse, which is different from ect.

But by all means spend three days doing the same work I can do in an hour and come up with the same number.

 

[celtic]

For those whom are unfamiliar with sq foot pricing.... it is based on many years of historic data.

Maybe you should have noted that historical data plays into your response previously:roll:

But by all means spend three days doing the same work I can do in an hour and come up with the same number.

An hour, huh?
What about all those years compiling the historical data?

A large church is different then a small church which is different then a resturant, which is different then a warehouse, which is different from ect.

That's completely understandable.



Try this one on for size....

Free standing fast food joint vs. food court fast food joint vs. Middle of the block(attached) Main St. fast food joint
Assumptions/givens:
- NONE have a drive thru
- Skip the electrical service on all
- Skip the parking lot lighting and signage also.

....all cost the same per sq. ft?

 

[cdslotz]

I would never trust a square foot price vs a nut/bolt take off. A supply house is not a takeoff service either. I don't trust a supply house with MY counts and switchgear bill of material, much less have them count for me. They always make mistakes.
Most plans are incomplete or full of mistakes which I have to sort through to have a complete bid, meaning, the things I can't figure out, I must qualify.
There are takeoff services out there, but if you choose that route, be sure the bid is to you exclusively and not sold to your competition. But even if you sub out the bid, they have no liability of errors or omissions leaving you to check their bid, so you might as well take it off yourself.

 

[shockin]

Try this one on for size....

Free standing fast food joint vs. food court fast food joint vs. Middle of the block(attached) Main St. fast food joint
Assumptions/givens:
- NONE have a drive thru
- Skip the electrical service on all
- Skip the parking lot lighting and signage also.

....all cost the same per sq. ft?

I would need to see the plans to fully understand the differances between the examples given, but I would assume that a "middle of the block" building would be only slightly cheaper per sq foot then a free standing due to some exterior building lighting unless I'm not understanding something.

The food court example would be substantially more per sq foot because there is no seating generally. There would be a savings because the RTU, FA, and service is usually the landlords responsability. But additional cost because I have to cut up the concrete.

Lots of variables, but I would have numerous historic examples to draw from, maybe even the exact resturant in the same setting if I'm lucky. Then I get to golf the rest of the day because my job is done.

 

[Lcdrwalker]

Estimating firms will only give you quantities. Material and labor for the job as it it is drawn. If there are local codes that require work not described in the plans you would have to qualify your bid to cover these. You will have to plug in your particular labor burden. You will also have to add in your material prices and what ever markup that you use.

 

[Hairbone]

I would have to say that if you do not have commercial estimating experience you either need to hire someone who does and buy into a software system like conest or McCormick systems to learn the game before bidding large projects. With the residential market in shambles it will save the day and keep you a float for a long time.

Outsourcing estimating has always amazed me but every material has a cost and a labor factor. As long as you and the next gut didn't miss anything in the specs it all boils down to labor rate & overhead & profit carried on a job. I still get amazed when I can put a bid out for a million dollar job and be within a thousand bucks of the next guy. HB

 

[ishium 80439]

I should perhaps clarify something. "Larger" jobs is a relative term. I am a small shop (2 full time one part time). Larger to me is what would be special projects to someone else. The square foot approach makes me nervous as I don't have years of historical data on which to draw. The last few projects I missed were remodels in at local university. Some were office space, there was a lab remodel and something else I don't recall. All were in existing buildings and and only a small portion was to be effected. The 373 page spec book kind of scared me off of just doing a "from the hip" estimate too.

This GC has sent me 2 more RFB and I think I am going to have to do them by hand with the Means book as I want to keep getting these invites and need to show them something in return.

 

[Hairbone]

Even though you are a small shop you should consider learning a software system. Take a look at www.conest.com as they have 3 day training cources all over the country on how to use the software. I learned it by trial and error mosrtly and never took formal training other than from my previous employer. It took me 2 weeks to get a grasp of the "library: and all of the assemblies.

The nice thing about these programs is it gives you a way of estimating outside your normal scope with confidence. I was never a data guy but am now. If it comes up I will bid out the installation and terminations with 100% confidence utilizing the program.

The other thing I like about using a program is it bids jobs based on how workers do a job and not by your own thinking of how fast you would do the job personnaly. It really adds money in the bank that was most likely left on the table. HB

 

[russ]

Has anyone actually used one of these estimating services.
I didn't even know they existed until today.
Someone told me about this one(electricalenlightenment)
today.

 

[Fulthrotl]

So If you charge $4.00 a square foot for example or even 10.00. Panel work will be real cheap!

square footing something isn't gonna work in a lot of areas....

this panel is about six square feet, and with the programming, and
400' of conduit, and prox sensors, and limit switches, and labor,
and lunch, the bill was $33,000...

most of my stuff is small enough i'd swag it, but with copper prices
going nuts, and everything else, for that matter, swagging is just too
thrilliing for my blood....

mark and i will both walk something, and i'll swag it, and he'll bid it
proper, and we'll compare notes afterwards, and i'm consistently
about 20% low.

so, now i swag it, and add a third... works for me.....

randy