Overhead feed for garage

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jjhoward

jjhoward

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Location
Northern NJ
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Owner TJ Electric
Detached garage is 60' from the house.
Overhead feed is now 10/2 UF tied to ceramic clevis type supports at both the house and the garage.

(Tied like a bow on a present. No messenger wire, no UV listing for the cable.)

This feeds an 8 position MLO panel.
To upgrade this garage feed I can use UF on a messenger wire from the house to the garage. (Table 396.10)

At the point of attacment at the garage must I end the UF and splice it to SER type cable, or can I terminate the UF in the garage panel since this is branch circuit and not a service feed?
And I will be installing 1 8' grnd rod attached to grnd bus of sub panel.

Thank you all.
 
Evening, Joe. :)

jjhoward said:
To upgrade this garage feed I can use UF on a messenger wire from the house to the garage. (Table 396.10)
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How much of an upgrade are you doing, ampwise? Would Triplex be a better choice? Better still, why not trench it in?

At the point of attachment at the garage must I end the UF and splice it to SER type cable, or can I terminate the UF in the garage panel...
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I'm not sure if UF can be installed in the way you're thinking. I can visualize triplex, insulators on the garage and a mast into the top of the panel; but I can't visualize a good-looking way to run UF down the wall and into the panel. I'd say 225.10 permits it, I just can't visualize it myself.


...since this is branch circuit and not a service feed?
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This is an outside feeder if it is supplying a panel.

Another key is, the 6-disconnect rule does apply to this structure (225.30). How many breakers are in that 8-space MLO?
 
stickboy1375 said:
Thats what I get for just opening my mouth and not reading... :)
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DOH!!!......
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In looking into the "UF down the wall" thing, I've come across something a little weird. It has some bearing on the issue, so I'm not starting a new thread on it. :)

225.21 kicks you over to 230.51 for mounting cables to buildings. I would say at a glance, that 230.51(A) regards SEU and SER - "Service Cables".

230.51(B) Other Cables. Cables that are not approved for mounting in contact with a building or other structure shall be mounted on insulating supports installed at intervals not exceeding 4.5 m (15 ft) and in a manner that maintains a clearance of not less than 50 mm (2 in.) from the surface over which they pass.
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Why is anything other than a "service cable" "not approved for mounting in contact with a building..."?

Looking over the SE/USE UL wire marking guide, I don't see any more about "approved for mounting on a building" for SE than for UF cable. I don't get it.
confused.gif
 
I think that 225.10 allows the use of uf on the outside of the building.Also 225.16 requires a support to the building even with a messenger cable. A disconnect will be required as well. Curious though how a 120 volt circuit supplies a sub panel.

230.51 is saying only cables that are not approved for use shall be mounted on insulators.
Rick
 
Hi George,
Yes, I don't know about runing the UF through the open wall studs of the garage down to the panel.

No trench, because the customer doesn't want us to dig up her yard.

Currently, there are only 5 breakers in this small sub panel.

So, must I end the UF at the POA and run SEU to the panel?
How about where I come out of the house from the main panel?
The main breaker panel is about 3' from where I would pierce the wall.
Do I need to run SEU cable up the house to the POA on the house??

Sounds messy for little panel.
 
RUWired said:
I think that 225.10 allows the use of uf on the outside of the building.
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I tend to agree that this section does. I would say it falls under "multiconductor cable."

RUWired said:
Curious though how a 120 volt circuit supplies a sub panel.
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Ditto. :)

RUWired said:
230.51 is saying only cables that are not approved for use shall be mounted on insulators.
Click to expand...
Okay, but what does that mean?

jjhoward said:
I don't know about runing the UF through the open wall studs of the garage down to the panel.
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Running down the interior of the structure, from the POA to the entrance to the panel would be a test of the AHJ's interpretation of 225.32. What is the AHJ's interpretation of "nearest the point of entrance of the conductors"? If that distance were acceptable to the AHJ, then there is absolutely no question in my mind that you could use UF the entire distance, minding normal supporting rules for the cable (running boards, etc).

To be totally out of the gray area in terms of 225.32, you'd need to run down the exterior surface of the structure. Which makes me curious about how you'd run UF and support it. Steel staples would corrode. I know of a UF clamp for wet locations, that would get you into the panel. But I'm unclear how you'd secure it to the exterior and protect it from physical damage.

I feel better with a weatherhead and mast, but that's kind of a weird mental image for a small UF cable.

One other point to note: I think 225.39(D) would give you trouble. On that note, I wonder if the NJ Rehab code will get you out of that.

Any other ways I can muddy this up for you? :D
 
Hi RIck,
The feed to the sub is 240V.
It is presently not done correctly 2 hots + the grnd going back to the main panel.

I think I will be putting up the smallest quadplex I can get Either #4 AL or #2.
And SER up the house and SER into the panel at the garage. I think the work to put up the messenger wire, attaching the UF, stripping the UF, any $s saved on materials will be lost in labor. The quadplex goes up as one assembly, use wedgies to hang it, splice and be done.

Then onto the all the receptacles in the garage and in the basement that are not GFI protected.
 
Thanks George and Rick for the replies and info.
I will post phots of the knots tied in the UF. It is kinda artsy. :)
 
Remember I am a newbie here, I am also on the west coast, but if it were me, and this is only my opinion, I would come out of the back of the panel with an L.B. and go up in PVC with a weatherhead, mount a strike knob....run conductors up through the weatherhead, splice your quadplex there, and then do the same method over at the garage, but this is just my opinion. I think that would look more professional, not cost that much more, and should meet any NEC codes.....
 
One of the AHJ's I deal with will not permit triplex or quadplex to be used because it is not UL listed. I tried to find some that was UL listed, but no luck.

I was told to use sunlight resistant THWN instead of triplex! I scratched my head on that one. THWN won't last long in outside environment compared to triplex!

Anyone else run into this problem?

John
 
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