Overhead Service Conductor Code Question 4th Quarter Urgent Help Needed Please

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Mattlong317

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Beech Grove, Indiana
I have done my share of service upgrades, yet oddly enough I have never ran into this issue. I will be starting a 200 Amp service upgrade in 2 days , I bid the job , acquired most of materials, got the permit, and scheduled the service disconnect through Duke energy.
So the bad part, a possible code violation, I believe , and a possibility of not being able to get the service back on at the end of the day , either because the inspector calls this violation or Duke Energy decides it's against their policy or whatever versions of codes they follow.
The problem situation that has dawned on me in the 4th quarter here. The home has an overhead service drop already connected and being used by homeowner for some years now. I am to upgrade the service to 200 amps. Sometime in the recent past the homeowner built a nice patio, with a roof completely covering the patio that spans the entire back of the house . The roof of said patio extends at least 10 feet from the house and is shingled and basically tied into the main house roof seamlessly, although I am not sure how it was framed and stuff , I believe the porch roof is supported by pillars and not attached to the main house, and just to get all the details across the porch/ patio has no walls or doors , barring the back brick wall of the pre existing main house.
Question: Nec code 230 ( I think ) pretty obviously states no more than 6 feet off service drop conductors shall pass over a roof , in an overhead service, so does this apply in all situations ? Question 2: Does this include prexisting structures and code violations that already exist , in the 6 foot scenario mentioned? Question 3: When the code states roof, would this include a porch roof , Or porch roof that was added well after the service was established to begin with?
So after all that being said the riser will be approximately 10 feet from the edge of the porch roof and there will be way more than 6 feet of service drop conductors traveling across this porch roof . And just to be clear the meter is attached to the back brick wall of the house and the riser is going through the original, normal roof overhang. And if it may make a difference the main roof is 4/12 pitch and the added in porch roof is pretty much flat as a roof can be , barely slopes down .
This is my first working with either the county inspector who must tag the meter for reconnect, and Duke Energy, never worked in this county at all, so have no clue of how lax they may be or the pet peeves they may have. Also the there are no easy locations to move the meter base at all , especially due to Windows , doors etc, it would easily be 30/ 40 foot move just to be in a violation free area.
Thank you in advance and I apoligize for rambling , or over detailing the situation.
 
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UPDATE **** Adding A FEW QUESTIONS

UPDATE **** Adding A FEW QUESTIONS

After doing some more reading and research on this issue I have found myself in it has raised a couple more questions.
Question 1: what amount of work causes the whole house to brought up to current code status, in other words , does upgrading the service require the whole house to be brought up to current codes ?
Question 2: This goes with question 1, obviously the new work is required to be up to date with codes, yet I am going to ask anyway , if the house was not previously required to have a ground rod connected to the panel , and the power company has hooked the service up once previously , after being disconnected during a time when a ground rod was required , am I required to drive 1? PART 2 : Is code now for existing structures to have one ground rod, or requuire 2 rods, like I believe new construction is?
Question 3: Staying on par with above questions, will this require ground cold water and or both hot and cold pipes at the water heater and gas lines?

Any extra information anyone can provide would be super highly appreciated, anything I may be missing that you possibly believe I am not seeing. The county I am working in does not require a license to pull permits, and requires inspector to tag the service for reconnection. It's a first time situation for me in this county, having an inspector tag my service change, and first time working with Duke Energy. I spent most of my career working for a Licensed master electrician , but I no longer can turn to him for helpful advice and questions. This forum is a great resource and very helpful and I would like to thank anyone in advance for helping me and apoligize for long posts, and any noob forum rule mistakes. Glad to be here and look forward to further interactions.


Also I live in Beech Grove, Indiana. Part of Marion county , suburb of Indianapolis, but work being performed in Morgan County, Indiana, the inspectors name is Scott if anyone is familiar with the locale..... THANKS AGAIN.
 
Question 1: what amount of work causes the whole house to brought up to current code status, in other words , does upgrading the service require the whole house to be brought up to current codes ?
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I am pretty sure a service upgrade is all you will have to do.


Question 2: This goes with question 1, obviously the new work is required to be up to date with codes, yet I am going to ask anyway , if the house was not previously required to have a ground rod connected to the panel , and the power company has hooked the service up once previously , after being disconnected during a time when a ground rod was required , am I required to drive 1? PART 2 : Is code now for existing structures to have one ground rod, or requuire 2 rods, like I believe new construction is?
Click to expand...

We always just drive two rods and call it a day.


Question 3: Staying on par with above questions, will this require ground cold water and or both hot and cold pipes at the water heater and gas lines?
Click to expand...

We only have to bond the cold water supply coming into the structure, or use it as an electrode. Gas lines are a building code thing dependent on the presence of CSST or not. Hot water lines, we don't worry about.
 
Mattlong317 said:
After doing some more reading and research on this issue I have found myself in it has raised a couple more questions.
Question 1: what amount of work causes the whole house to brought up to current code status, in other words , does upgrading the service require the whole house to be brought up to current codes ?
Question 2: This goes with question 1, obviously the new work is required to be up to date with codes, yet I am going to ask anyway , if the house was not previously required to have a ground rod connected to the panel , and the power company has hooked the service up once previously , after being disconnected during a time when a ground rod was required , am I required to drive 1? PART 2 : Is code now for existing structures to have one ground rod, or requuire 2 rods, like I believe new construction is?
Question 3: Staying on par with above questions, will this require ground cold water and or both hot and cold pipes at the water heater and gas lines?

Any extra information anyone can provide would be super highly appreciated, anything I may be missing that you possibly believe I am not seeing. The county I am working in does not require a license to pull permits, and requires inspector to tag the service for reconnection. It's a first time situation for me in this county, having an inspector tag my service change, and first time working with Duke Energy. I spent most of my career working for a Licensed master electrician , but I no longer can turn to him for helpful advice and questions. This forum is a great resource and very helpful and I would like to thank anyone in advance for helping me and apoligize for long posts, and any noob forum rule mistakes. Glad to be here and look forward to further interactions.


Also I live in Beech Grove, Indiana. Part of Marion county , suburb of Indianapolis, but work being performed in Morgan County, Indiana, the inspectors name is Scott if anyone is familiar with the locale..... THANKS AGAIN.
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Question 1: will depend on local codes and regulations. NEC alone only will address what you do actually install or make changes to.

Question 2: Based on NEC alone (you could have local rules that amend NEC) you are not required to have a "ground rod". What you must have is a grounding electrode system in accordance with 250.50, and will basically need to include all present electrodes mentioned in 250.52 (A)(1) through (A)(7). If none of those are present, you have some options of using "made electrodes" and a ground rod(s) is the most common and practical choice normally used in that situation. Otherwise if you had building steel or a concrete encased electrode already present - no other "made electrodes" are required. Water pipe electrodes need supplemented by another electrode, if there is building steel or CEE, no problem, if not, driving rod(s) again is the most common and most practical most cases, but you could add anything that qualifies as an electrode.

Question 3: also can depend on local amendments to some extent, but NEC requires 10 feet or more of buried metallic water piping to be used as a grounding electrode - it must be connected to a GEC within 5 feet of entry to the structure. NEC also requires metallic piping systems to be bonded to the electrical grounding system and a bond around isolating fittings in that system. This is where a lot of confusion and local rules pop up regarding bonding the hot water side of the system. Per NEC alone if there is solid metallic fittings that bond the hot and cold together (a shower mixing valve commonly will accomplish this) you shouldn't need to add any bonding jumpers between them, but some AHJ's apparently want to see a jumper elsewhere anyway - at the water heater location seems to be a common place where they may want to see it, based on what others have posted here in the past.

Metallic gas piping? Again a lot of local rules can pop up here, but NEC alone only required gas piping to be bonded by the equipment grounding conductor of any circuit(s) that may be likely to energize the piping. CSST gas piping has it's own rules that are covered by the instructions of the particular product being used - it is not addressed at all by NEC. Again also a common place where some local rules may come into play.


The clearance on your overhead service drop? First thing is to determine where the "service point" is. That will determine if NEC even applies to that part of the installation. If it is on the POCO side of the service point, NEC doesn't apply. POCO very likely will have rules they want to apply to it though. If NEC does apply, any open conductor (or open cable assembly) over a less then 4/12 pitch roof will need at least 8 feet of clearance above the highest point on the roof that it passes over, maybe more if the roof is subject to regular foot traffic, like if there were a patio or something on the roof.

From what I read, you could extend your mast high enough to get proper clearance, it probably will need extra reinforcement or bracing of some sort though if you do that.
 
{{K8MHZ's Avatar I would just run all the above by the inspector. }}

I certainty advise this first. Also look in the NEC about clearances above the roof. Might be able to run the 2" IMC riser up high enough to get proper clearance above the roof (probably will have to guy-wire the IMC though).
 
We have had to change the locations of the service, or have the POCO change the location of the drop, due to roof clearance issues related to structures being built under the drop after the service was installed.

If in doubt, call the inspector to take a look at it and get his feedback, for sure.
 
K8MHZ said:
We have had to change the locations of the service, or have the POCO change the location of the drop, due to roof clearance issues related to structures being built under the drop after the service was installed.

If in doubt, call the inspector to take a look at it and get his feedback, for sure.
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Location of the drop may mean higher elevation is one possibility.
 
Thanks.

Thanks.

ThanK you for all the information, and feedback everyone!

Through my rambling post maybe i made some confusion, but some ôf your answers have raised my spirits... But the main code point i am worried about, i understood the code pertained to length of service çables traveling over the roof, i.e. 6 foot max. But this understand is on the POCO side, as its the drop running about 10/ 12 feet to the riser. Also the rîser extends through the 4/12 pitch ôf the roof, so if I understand your posts correctly, I dont need the 8 foot height clearance???

The bond ground info is highly appreciated. Very helpful, to me. I am just worried about restoring service same day, is a must and I dont want Duke Energy to refuse reconnection due to 10 ft of their wiring running over 10 12 foot of roof. And just to collect opinions, and see if other locations maybe similar to this scenario: Must schedule 48 hours in advance with POCO for disconnecting power, yet earliest appointment available is 9 AM. Next the inspector must tag service and call for reconnect. But you have to make appointment with Inspector , morning of job, POCO policy is must be called in by 3 PM or wait another day for reconnect. 6 hour window to complete job, and aligning multiple parties timing. Feeling some pressurre.... Familiar?


Thanks again.....
 
K8MHZ said:
I would just run all the above by the inspector.
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Me too. You did say this was happening in two days but I would cancel until you can discuss it all with the inspector. I would ask him to meet me on site to go over what you want to do. If you just go ahead with the work and do not pass inspection you have a big problem
 
mkgrady said:
Me too. You did say this was happening in two days but I would cancel until you can discuss it all with the inspector. I would ask him to meet me on site to go over what you want to do. If you just go ahead with the work and do not pass inspection you have a big problem
Click to expand...
+1

:happyyes:
 
JDB3 said:
... Also look in the NEC about clearances above the roof. Might be able to run the 2" IMC riser up high enough to get proper clearance above the roof (probably will have to guy-wire the IMC though).
Click to expand...
Assuming POCO/AHJ do not require meter relocation, it appears his drop will have to have 8ft. clearance above the roof. None of the Exceptions to 230.24(A) appear applicable with the porch roof slope being less than 4/12.
 
Mattlong317 said:
ThanK you for all the information, and feedback everyone!

Through my rambling post maybe i made some confusion, but some ôf your answers have raised my spirits... But the main code point i am worried about, i understood the code pertained to length of service çables traveling over the roof, i.e. 6 foot max. But this understand is on the POCO side, as its the drop running about 10/ 12 feet to the riser. Also the rîser extends through the 4/12 pitch ôf the roof, so if I understand your posts correctly, I dont need the 8 foot height clearance???

The bond ground info is highly appreciated. Very helpful, to me. I am just worried about restoring service same day, is a must and I dont want Duke Energy to refuse reconnection due to 10 ft of their wiring running over 10 12 foot of roof. And just to collect opinions, and see if other locations maybe similar to this scenario: Must schedule 48 hours in advance with POCO for disconnecting power, yet earliest appointment available is 9 AM. Next the inspector must tag service and call for reconnect. But you have to make appointment with Inspector , morning of job, POCO policy is must be called in by 3 PM or wait another day for reconnect. 6 hour window to complete job, and aligning multiple parties timing. Feeling some pressurre.... Familiar?


Thanks again.....
Click to expand...
two things here, first is if this is on the POCO side of the "Service point" NEC doesn't apply to it.

If NEC does apply the six feet you are trying to figure out is in exception 3 to 230.24(A). it only applies to through the roof service masts and the overhanging portion of a roof and an allowance of 18 inches of clearance over that overhanging portion of the roof is also added to this exception. 4/12+ pitch gives you a three foot clearance allowance above any portion of the roof the conductor(s) hang over. If you have additional porch roof beyond the house - how much clearance is needed will depend on the slope of that roof. If it is 4/12 or more then 3 feet is allowed. Less pitch then that and you need 8 feet of clearance unless it is subject to pedestrian or vehicle traffic.
 
Thanks again everyone for the help and feedback. To anyone who has shown interest in this thread, I was inspected by an inspector who is a master electrician license holder himself, he assured me that a code revision, states a ground rod located underneath a poured concrete slab is no longer acceptable, due to lack of adequete moisture to provide correct grounding..... No biggie I added a new one without sledging it once with the old water in the hole , and few up n down thrusts. Possibly easiest one I have ever installed.
I learned a big lesson working in a rural county also. It is very tough to contact an inspector, and you have no shot of seeing one after 3 PM on a friday. I requested a 2:30 appt , was told let me call you right back, never did, a part-time inspector showed up at 12:30 , failed me , of course. Then told me he would have the normal inspector call me and assured me someone would be back after 3, yet no one called or showed... Homeowner no power from Friday morning till 10 AM Monday, with all blame squarely on me , with the result of homeowner refusing to pay for the completed work. Find it unbelieveable POCO has no temp restoral protocol, no weekend inspections there, and your just stuck if this situation occurs. I wonder what procedure there is for emergency meterbase repairs on a weekend from storms etc.... Thank the higher power for counties allowing Self cert tags.
A last quesrion , #4 solid ground from main panel through nipple into meter cabinet , split bolt junction, out of meter cabinet in seal tight to ground rod , legitimate or violation of code? Oh yeah how many of you still taping off wire nut junctions, just wondering? Must have been inspectors pet peev , so I taped about 20 wire nuts today inside the panel....
 
Mattlong317 said:
Thanks again everyone for the help and feedback. To anyone who has shown interest in this thread, I was inspected by an inspector who is a master electrician license holder himself, he assured me that a code revision, states a ground rod located underneath a poured concrete slab is no longer acceptable, due to lack of adequete moisture to provide correct grounding..... No biggie I added a new one without sledging it once with the old water in the hole , and few up n down thrusts. Possibly easiest one I have ever installed.
I learned a big lesson working in a rural county also. It is very tough to contact an inspector, and you have no shot of seeing one after 3 PM on a friday. I requested a 2:30 appt , was told let me call you right back, never did, a part-time inspector showed up at 12:30 , failed me , of course. Then told me he would have the normal inspector call me and assured me someone would be back after 3, yet no one called or showed... Homeowner no power from Friday morning till 10 AM Monday, with all blame squarely on me , with the result of homeowner refusing to pay for the completed work. Find it unbelieveable POCO has no temp restoral protocol, no weekend inspections there, and your just stuck if this situation occurs. I wonder what procedure there is for emergency meterbase repairs on a weekend from storms etc.... Thank the higher power for counties allowing Self cert tags.
A last quesrion , #4 solid ground from main panel through nipple into meter cabinet , split bolt junction, out of meter cabinet in seal tight to ground rod , legitimate or violation of code? Oh yeah how many of you still taping off wire nut junctions, just wondering? Must have been inspectors pet peev , so I taped about 20 wire nuts today inside the panel....
Click to expand...
Inspector needs to go back to school, no such rule disallowing a ground rod below a slab, no rule to tape wire connectors either.

Why run GEC through the meter and not just land it in the meter? It can connect to service disconnect enclosure or anywhere on the supply side of the service disconnect.

Was a thread a month or so ago where a guy in CA had problems with AHJ and POCO and his customer went for like 10 days without power all over what was an error or misunderstanding, glad we don't ever have those kind of problems here. All my work is in rural counties, they understand here that they can't be at those places in decent time and don't make you wait to energize as a general rule. Temporary services for some reason they want approval before energizing, though one of key things on those is making sure GFCI's function, which is hard to do with no power:roll:
 
The only possible problem I can see with a ground rod under a slab is that the inspector could not verify it and the connection to it.

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Mattlong317 said:
Thanks again everyone for the help and feedback. To anyone who has shown interest in this thread, I was inspected by an inspector who is a master electrician license holder himself, he assured me that a code revision, states a ground rod located underneath a poured concrete slab is no longer acceptable, due to lack of adequete moisture to provide correct grounding..... No biggie I added a new one without sledging it once with the old water in the hole , and few up n down thrusts. Possibly easiest one I have ever installed.
I learned a big lesson working in a rural county also. It is very tough to contact an inspector, and you have no shot of seeing one after 3 PM on a friday. I requested a 2:30 appt , was told let me call you right back, never did, a part-time inspector showed up at 12:30 , failed me , of course. Then told me he would have the normal inspector call me and assured me someone would be back after 3, yet no one called or showed... Homeowner no power from Friday morning till 10 AM Monday, with all blame squarely on me , with the result of homeowner refusing to pay for the completed work. Find it unbelieveable POCO has no temp restoral protocol, no weekend inspections there, and your just stuck if this situation occurs. I wonder what procedure there is for emergency meterbase repairs on a weekend from storms etc.... Thank the higher power for counties allowing Self cert tags.
A last quesrion , #4 solid ground from main panel through nipple into meter cabinet , split bolt junction, out of meter cabinet in seal tight to ground rod , legitimate or violation of code? Oh yeah how many of you still taping off wire nut junctions, just wondering? Must have been inspectors pet peev , so I taped about 20 wire nuts today inside the panel....
Click to expand...

You might contact Duke if you have to do more of these. We are certified with a couple of our local power companies to request and receive a meter install after hours which triggers an inspection the next working day.
 
Emergency reconnects after hours usually they get the homeowner and electrician sign a waiver and they connect pending inspection. Also they would not make me wait for another inspection and risk being without power for days due to a ground rod. They would pass and come back to check for ground rod. It would have to be a violation that could not be repaired after connection for them to not call it in for connection. You gain trust with inspectors and lineman over time.

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