Paddle fan in room with recessed lights

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bjp_ne_elec

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Probably a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyways. Have a situation where the HO wants recessed lights in an average size room - roughly 11' x 11'-6". The HO does not like having lamps, so has insisted on having recessed lights - but the other thing in the mix is that they also want a paddle fan. I figured it best to put four (4) recess lights dividing the room up by thirds. The thing I'm struggling with is the proximity to the paddle fans.

The paddle fan (52" edge to edge on the paddles - seems like a pretty big blade span for a room this size) would not cover the actual edge of the recess can - but may infringe on part of the beam that is given off by each particular can. Would this create a sort of "strobe effect" on the small portion of the beam that may be "cut through"?

My concern is that if I were to move the lights more away from the center of the room, that I would get uneven lighting in the center of the room, than I had on around the perimeter. Has anyone ran in to a situation like this?

Thanks,

Brett
 
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recess lights are typical near the parimeter of most rooms. They would be use to provide light to someone at a desk or sitting on a couch. I would hit the parimeter about 30" from wall. If there isn't enough light in the center I would add a small light kit on the fan.

Of course all this really depends on how big the room is and what it's used for.
 
I just did this install at my mothers house, the fan went dead center of the room but the framing only allowed me to install the lights 40" off each wall, so I installed (4) 5" recess cans in each corner, 40" off each wall to center of can... looked really nice, the fan had a light kit as well and that looked good with the recess... i'll try and take a picture and post it tomorrow night for you..
 
Marty - the HO does not want a light in the paddle fan, and this is not a situation where the HO is trying to get focused lighting for wall photos, etc. The recessed lights are intended to light the whole room - as the intent (and the request of the HO) is to only have the recessed lights as the only light source.
 
If the framing allows it, what I normally do is whatever the distance between the lights is, I do half that against the wall, so... if the wall length is 16' long, I will come out 4' off corner install light, 8' in between, 4' off corner install light... this will light the room perfect...
 
I generally do the same as Stick, 1/4 and 3/4.

Added: Brett, can't you talk to the customer about this, and recommend a smaller fan?
 
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The Fan will be 5'9" off the walls in one direction and 5'6" the other. A 52" fan will have 26" span. You need to be at least 2 more feet to avoid a strobe-- that's an approx.

I have done this and I ending up using regressed eyeball trim to direct the cans from flooding toward the fan . It worked well.
 
Dennis - in your scenario, where are the cans laying out? You mention you use the regressed lens - so does that allow you to bring them closer? If I'm getting you correctly, you indicate you need to move two (2) feet beyond the edge of the blade - is that correct? That seems to push the cans very close to the wall - so I'd be concerned about how well the center of the room is lite.

Thanks
 
recessed cans

recessed cans

Or perhaps wall wash trims on the cans using the walls as the reflective surfaces. These trims reduce the light output but as stated above if you can redirect the light pattern from the fan blades you will reduce or omit the strobe affect.
 
bjp_ne_elec said:
Dennis - in your scenario, where are the cans laying out? You mention you use the regressed lens - so does that allow you to bring them closer? If I'm getting you correctly, you indicate you need to move two (2) feet beyond the edge of the blade - is that correct? That seems to push the cans very close to the wall - so I'd be concerned about how well the center of the room is lite.

Thanks
Click to expand...


That is one of the problems with a small room, however the eyeballs will let you go closer to the fan and you can angle the light away from the blades just enough to avoid strobe.

Remember the 2' past the blades are measures at the diagonal cause I put 2 cans on each side of the fan rather than on all 4 sides.
 
Larry - yes I can. I've already recommended the HO that they look at going to a 36" unit - which should be ample for the size of the room. From what I can find, the 52" fan is good for a room 20' x 20'. I'm also looking in to what the distance the blades are from the ceiling. It's only an 8' ceiling, so I'm assuming they've planned on a low profile.

They already have purchased the 52" unit, and I'm sure they're focused more on the style of what they've picked out, than the spread of the blades.
 
Ruwiredrite - is this something that you can get from the big box stores, or do you have to go to folks that specialize in paddle fans? I did not realize that smaller blades were readily available.

Thanks
 
This is a very interesting situation, one I haven't dealt with (yet.) I'm sure it will come up, so wanted an answer. Few rooms are 16 feet square. Despite warnings that I won't take it easy when I rip up the ceiling if they get one, most of my customers go out and buy highly decorative 52 inch heavyweights. Here are some ideas from the people who make the stuff:

For Rooms Up To:Fan Blade Span:
100 sq. ft.36"
144 sq. ft. 42"
225 sq. ft.44" or 48"
400 sq. ft.52" or 54"

So they went and selected a mongo fan, overpowering visually for a room this size. For the recessed lights, there's some good information under 'general guidelines' and 'tips' for recessed lights at the Thomas site. In this case, especially Planning a Room, they state that 6' to 8' is about the right range between lamps. And, that 3 foot off the wall is where to start, with less than 3 giving more reflection (from the wall) and that the room will appear brighter.

http://www.thomaslighting.com/infocenter/lightingtips.asp

I thought the need for a trim to direct the light was unnecessary - until looking at a picture of the situation. Dennis has the right idea, especially with that fan in that room. It's assumed that the fan is 1 foot below the ceiling. I thought, wrongly, that the light would need to hit the upper side of the blades to cause a problem. Different lamps may narrow the beam, but there must be points of light to keep the space stimulating. For an 8 foot ceiling, placing the can center 3 feet in from the walls will result in a 'perfect' space of only ten inches at a five foot eye level - not too great results.

The strobe, or visual interference, will result in three areas. Near the fan, interference from all lamps will probably have a dizzying effect. To the side, the other side's strobe effect will be less harsh but I wouldn't want it in my house. Underneath, the cone of 'good stuff' is what you want when you walk in the room. It looks as if you'll only get it right by moving cans closer than 3' from the walls and, likely, using a smaller fan.

I hope you can see the attached drawings, which illustrate just what the situation is. It was necessary to cut the pictures into 'plot' and 'side' views to upload. The 'side' views are from the fan to the corner, not square to the room's walls. On the left, the cans were placed 3 feet from the wall. On the right, the distance to the corner was cut in half - all rough measurements, with fractions ignored. The 1/4-3/4 solution, not shown at 2' in from the corner, put the fixtures at 12.7 and 13.5 inches from the wall, but increased the 'angle' to 74 degrees.

edit: fix 'fan size' information formatting
 
Pete - very informative post - but I'm trying to follow your "a 'perfect' space of only ten inches at a five foot eye level" - not really following what this truly means. Where is the 10" measured from? Trying to establish where the "perfect space" is in the light being 36" in off the wall corner scenario.

Thanks
 
Sorry about the comments not making sense.

The first solution, on the left, L, uses the can's centers at three feet in from the wall.

The second solution, on the right, R, uses the cans placed about halfway between the fan center and the corner.

The lower drawing shows not the projected beam, which might just touch the fan, but the eye's travel. The diagonal lines would be the line of sight extent of when you see the far side's can through the blades. Extending these diagonals around the fan, these would form a cone or hourglass shape.
Where the sand sits above, you would be looking through both sets of blades to a lamp.
Outside the hourglass shape, you would be looking at one of the lamps through blades.
Underneath, in the space the sand empties into, you would see both lamps without looking through fan blades.

This was not expected, and frankly I didn't know how to show it, but they are the important results. This room is standard, 8' ceilings.
First, the fan sits 1 foot down from the ceiling (7', in this case)
The first measurement, at 2' down (6' AFF), a 21" circle (L,) or 14" (R).
The second measurement, 3' down (5' AFF), a 10" circle (L) or 23" (R).
The third measurement, 4' down (4' AFF), a 41" circle (L) or 60" (R).
Both of these last (3', 4' down) solutions now define the visually 'perfect space' boundary, i.e., if your eye level is 5' above the finished floor, you'd need to stand within 10" of the fan's center to see all four lamps without having the blades cutting your view of those lamps. This would be an ellipse, not a perfect circle, but still the idea of an hourglass shape can illustrate in 3D how big an area directly under the fan, would define the stroboscope area. I drew 10, 21, and 41 inch circles around the L fan, but that turned out just messy. It shows that even without cutting right through the beam, you will notice the far side lamp in practically the entire room, unless you are very short and standing in the exact center.
 
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