Pancake Boxes

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jeff43222

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Minneapolis, Minnesota
I got called to a job today involving changing out a light fixture and the associated wiring. When I took off the fixture, I found a pancake box filled with lots of wires (some very old, some relatively new), including some that were feeding another circuit somewhere. In any case, there were more wires in the box than there was room for. Replacing the box is not an option, as it's fed with RMC for some reason. The only way the box can be replaced is if I use a Sawzall and make a big mess, which the client is adamantly opposed to. Also, doing that would disconnect the second circuit (going who knows where), which is using the pancake box as a j-box.

So I'm wondering what my options are in terms of the code. Can I just swap out the fixture and make the wiring changes I need to make, ignoring the box-fill issue? Or do I have to leave the box compliant with the current code (2002 where I live) since I made an alteration?
 
Re: Pancake Boxes

Sometimes in this trade we open PANDORA`S BOX :D Might be the same system that burns down the same home they so joyfully bought last month ;) Most mortgage companies wont close on a home that has these problems,but this is something that has become a topic for these same reasons......
 
Re: Pancake Boxes

Yeah, I encounter things like this pretty often, as I work primariliy in old homes. I've never come across a capped gas pipe, though. Yet.

I just got off the phone with a city inspector that covers the part of town where I work most often. Basically, he told me it's a judgement call as to whether I think an existing pancake box is too full. This sounds like one of those gray areas not fully covered by the code. There's clearly a box-fill violation, but it might have been legal when it was originally installed. Adding/altering wiring results in a mix a new and old, making it not terribly clear about what rules apply to the box.

I hope this viewpoint is generally held among inspectors in other areas where I work. I'd hate to have to keep track of which inspector says what about this subject.
 
Re: Pancake Boxes

It sounds like the inspector is being reasonable in this case.
Box fill violation does not automatically mean a hazard. If you ovefill a 4/s by one conductor, you won't burn down the building.
I would look at adding an extension box, carefully folding conductors back into the box, or the canopy of the luminaire will provide some room.

I wish all inspectors would look at things the same. Even in the same City you have inspectors viewing things different.
 
Re: Pancake Boxes

The inspector did ask me about the luminaire canopy, but the GC hasn't given me any specs or pictures of what is going to be installed. I agree that the inspector was being reasonable about it. I just wanted to get a firm grasp on what his opinion was before doing anything so I wouldn't have to do it over if I guessed wrong.

Extending the box usually isn't an option. In a lot of cases, the pancake box is either nailed directly to the joist, or it has RMC feeding it. In either case, the box is flush with the plaster, and the only way to move it involves power tools and a big shovel to clean up the debris afterward. Most people aren't nearly as eager for me to use my Sawzall as I am. :D
 
Re: Pancake Boxes

You have options. If they want to add a ceiling fan or a light with a canopy. As someone pointed out, the canopy created cubic-inches in your box space. By code, you are only aloowed 1 14-2 or 12-2 wire in a Pan fan, when using the cubic inches formula for box fill. You are not even allowed to put a 3 wire in a pan fan. Anything beyond this is a code violation. If the homeowner puts in a fan, they can create the extra space needed. Otherwise, there is a box made by Reiker, that straddles one 2 by 4 stud and have box space on each side. These are pretty deep. Check into this. Otherwise pull out the hacksaw or walk. :D
 
Re: Pancake Boxes

I worked in an area that is just loaded with old and older homes. So I came across circumstances like this many times as a contractor. I developed the nickname "the holy contractor", because I was not afraid to make the necessary holes to get the job done. I worked for some of the wealthest people in the country, and it was not too hard to persuade them to have it installed properly.

Those gas nipples were hard to get used to, but a local plumber is the only cure to that.
As far as box fill, change the box, if not because of safety, but for integrity of our industry - which will separate us from the "busy bees" that fly out of the big box stores every day.
 
Re: Pancake Boxes

I encountered alot of these in the 70`s along with all to many other things from that era :D All kidding aside I do would like to know how many of these gas lights today still have an active gas service in same area as a 120 volt J boxThere were all to many times when I was removing the 3/8th nipple mounted pancake to get to good wire I would find an active gas pipe.I passed through one of these buildings about 8 years ago while visiting family and it looked the same as the day I found the gas pipe in a hall fixture with 4 # 14`s that had the insulation crumbling off.That was 20 years ago ;)
 
Re: Pancake Boxes

George,

When the houses get back to the early 1900s, there is a high likelyhood that the original lighting was gas fired, not electric. Local history will demonstrate the approximate year that electricity started staying on 24 / 7. Initially, the PoCo fired up the generators for only part of the day, generally powering down through the still of the night.

The decision makers controlling how an individual house was built would decide what energy systems would go into a house. I've worked on houses built in the 1930s that were plumbed for gas light, and wired with RMC for electric light. . .however, the 1930s is very late to see someone still not trusting electricity to keep working. Houses built 1919 and earlier will likely have original gas light that was also wired, or was retrofitted with electricity.
 
Re: Pancake Boxes

Might be cool now but when I was the one on the top of the ladder with a pipe wrench so I could get the cap off to get to the old BX and when I twisted and heard that awful hissssssssss as natural gass came rushing out.Believe me it was not cool at all ;)
 
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