Panel Board Upgrade Advice

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JROD

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I may not be handling this correctly and it would help to get a fresh perspective. I have a customer who I have done work for before on his rental properties, and most of the times I end up fixing his mistakes.

Part of his house loses power. He has a 30+ year old Murray Panel Board that has three buses. The main bus has a new Siemens 60 AMP 2-Pole. The top pole feeds the kitchen, bathroom and most of the house?s receptacles. The bottom pole feeds the middle bus, the blade on the bus bar for the bottom pole is melted almost all of the way through. When he first noticed the problem, he replaced the pre-existing breaker with a Siemens 60 AMP and smeared everything with dielectric contact grease. He said that that took care of it for a while. The plastic molding from the 3 month old breaker is singed and melted around the bottom pole and while I was there I could hear intermittent crackling coming from the breaker.

He said he is planning on putting the house up for sale and wants it fixed, ?right?. I told him that in my opinion the best thing would be to replace the panel board. He said that he was under the impression that I could just install a sub-panel to bypass the 60 AMP breaker and that I don?t need a permit because if anyone asked he would say he did the work.

I gave him an estimate $650 to replace the existing panel board. I also advised him that even though I would pull the permit for a panel board upgrade, his kitchen and bathroom were not code compliant and I couldn?t guarantee that the inspector would not flag it. He angrily replied that he had paid to have all new receptacles installed in the kitchen. He also said that $650 was too much money and that he would consider paying $600. And he didn?t see the need for a permit. I told him that without the permit I would not do the work.
 
Around here this job would require a permit. From what you said about the existing panel it needs to be replaced. A new service would need to be 100 amp minimum. If he chose anything other than a service upgrade, I would walk away. Sounds like someone who is selling a house and can't part with $650 is a loser customer in the first place. Don't get involved if he doesn't want to do the job right.
 
Walk away and don't look back.

As an aside, he is not allowed to do any work on his rental properties.

Genearal Statute 87-43. Electrical contracting defined; licenses.


Electrical contracting shall be defined as engaging or offering to engage in the business of installing, maintaining, altering or repairing any electric work, wiring, devices, appliances or equipment. No person, partnership, firm or corporation shall engage, or offer to engage, in the business of electrical contracting within the State of North Carolina without having received a license in the applicable classification described in G.S. 87-43.3 from the State Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors in compliance with the provisions of this Article, regardless of whether the offer was made or the work was performed by a qualified individual as defined in G.S.87-41.1. In each separate place of business operated by an electrical contractor at least one listed qualified individual shall be regularly on active duty and shall have the specific duty and authority to supervise and direct all electrical wiring or electrical installation work done or made by such separate place of business. Every person, partnership, firm or corporation engaging in the business of electrical contracting shall display a current certificate of license in his principal place of business and in each branch place of business which he operates. Licenses issued hereunder shall be signed by the chairman and the secretary-treasurer of the Board, under the seal of the Board. A registry of all licenses issued to electrical contractors shall be kept by the secretary-treasurer of the Board, and said registry shall be open for public inspection during ordinary business hours.

87-43.1. Exceptions.
The provisions of this Article shall not apply:


(5a) To any person who is himself and for himself installing, maintaining, altering or repairing electric work, wiring, devices, appliances or equipment upon his own property when such property is not intended at the time for rent, lease, or sale;
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That last sentence takes him out of the picture unless he holds an active EC license


Roger
 
This person, insisting on you doing the work without a permit, and claiming that he will perger himself and claim that he did the work himself, is not to be trusted. If something happens, he will be the first person to haul you into court for a lawsuit. Run, do not walk away from this job. I pity the person that ends up with this persons house.
 
haskindm said:
This person, insisting on you doing the work without a permit, and claiming that he will perger himself and claim that he did the work himself, is not to be trusted. If something happens, he will be the first person to haul you into court for a lawsuit. Run, do not walk away from this job. I pity the person that ends up with this persons house.
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good advice.
 
The only disagreement I have with the others is that they said you should either walk or run away from this job. I say you should sprint! :D

This guy is the last guy you want to have as a customer. He's already demonstrated he's willing to compromise safety (dielectric contact grease), lie to the AHJ (he would say he did the work), and ignore the law (he didn?t see the need for a permit). On top of it all, he says your price of $650 is too high. Actually, I'd say it's a tad low, but I'll allow for regional variations in price. No way is it too high, especially considering what materials cost these days. The existing grounding is probably not up to code, either, so don't forget to add in the ground rod(s), clamps, and the expensive GECs.
 
roger said:
As an aside, he is not allowed to do any work on his rental properties. . . . That last sentence takes him out of the picture unless he holds an active EC license
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I may have read it wrong, but I infer that this particular house is his own home, not one of his rental properties.

In any event, I have to agree with the "walk away" advice. If this guy succeeds in getting you to do this job his way, then that "victory" of his will influence any potential future work he may be willing to send your way.
 
RUN FOREST RUN!! I used to work for people like this and I found that as I raised my rates they went away and my recievables went up up up. Dont think twice about it, give him your competitors phone number, and raise your rates now. He and his ilk, wont like the new rates, you wont get usless work like this, and you will have more time and money to hang with the family.
 
RUN
RUN FAR AWAY
RUN FAR AWAY AND NEVER LOOK BACK


As a LL myself, I can tell alot about this LL from the little info you have given.
My opinion(s):
He's tighter than a crab's butt at high tide.
He has NO interest in this property other than it turn maximum profit at minimal cost. If you do get involved, you won't get the $650 you want, you won't even get the $600 he offered. What you'll get is *maybe* $300-$400 and the promise of full payment after closing - which you probably won't get...he'll stall any lien you may try and place on the property and shovel the debt over to the new owners. If your lucky, the outstanding debt might be placed in escrow by the one of the attorneys - if you postpone the inspection until after the closing and both parties(atty's) are aware of this(your) stipulation.

IF you do this one task(panel swap), ANY and ALL defiiences discovered will be traced back to you - even if you didn't do that work. The kitchens and bathrooms - your "fault"...he'll say that whatever the situation is, you were supposed to fix it as part of that original figure. The buyer will NOT want to use you in the future....the seller has dragged your name through the mud.

I suggest you rip-off your rear-view mirror now.
 
100amp is minum service you could use. as far a price goes you are a tad to low. I am replacing a the 125 amp fpe panel only on a customers house with new 125 MB 30 ckt panel. I will have to drive a ground rod and run new water pipe ground. I am charging $900.00 for this my panel cost is $175.00 and remiander will costaround $160.00 I can do this job in about 5-6 hours and will have to pull permit. This is only changing out the panel only.
I would walk a way from this job . the landlord can call one of the bargain Electricians who dont care about doing shody work. this guy is just looking for the cheapest price. and dose not care about the future home owner.
 
Riograndeelectric said:
100amp is minum service you could use. as far a price goes you are a tad to low. I am replacing a the 125 amp fpe panel only on a customers house with new 125 MB 30 ckt panel. I will have to drive a ground rod and run new water pipe ground. I am charging $900.00 for this my panel cost is $175.00 and remiander will costaround $160.00 I can do this job in about 5-6 hours and will have to pull permit. This is only changing out the panel only.
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Yep -- that's what I'd pay for materials and charge for the job.
 
Thanks for the great advice. This forum is really a great resource!

This guy had always complained to me as to how much things cost, that his health is failing and that it is difficult being on a fixed income. In the past when I worked on his rental properties, it had always been on callout for small jobs like correctly wiring a GFCI receptacle that he installed and I would give him a break on my rate.

I followed all of your advice and told him that I no longer wished to be considered for the job. Good lesson learned on my part.

Thanks Again!
 
Panel, and 2 ground rods, bond water heater, and water meter, what condition is the service lateral, and meter in? price is on the low side.
 
The last FPE (100A) panel I swapped out was to a Square D QO...panel was recessed in a finished area....no extras (ground rods, bonding etc)...~ price $1000...and IMHO, it took too dam long for that price!

The last panel I swapped out was again recessed in a finished wall...same deal ....Square D QO, no extras ~ price $1600...only difference was this was a "night job" ( at HO's request, he worked days and wanted to sleep ??? )
 
Pass,,

Pass,,

PASS ON THE WHOLE JOB,,THERES GONNA BE NO PLEASING THE GUY NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO,,,soory caps"
if he thinks 650.00 is to much for a panel change,,let him go,
you gotto pull a permit,
 
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