Panel changeouts/upgrades

[highendtron]

I was at our local early morning hangout and a couple apartment building owners and rental home owners were complaining about "jackleg electricians" and "home inspectors" that perform inspections and demand panel upgrades for realtors or prospective buyers. To the best of my knowledge, the NEC does not specify when a panel must be changed or upgraded. I am aware that box fill and capacity constraints as well as safety issues can warrant an upgrade, but most of the "home inspectors" have dubious qualifications and give subjective recommendations. Any thoughts on NEC/NFPA requirements concerning upgrades would be appreciated!

 

[raider1]

The NEC has no requirements for when you upgrade an electrical panel. This would be left up the the owner of the panel.

Keep in mind that a home inspector has absolutely no authority to require anything. Every thing they put in their report is just a recommendation.

Chris

 

[ohm]

I was at our local early morning hangout and a couple apartment building owners and rental home owners were complaining about "jackleg electricians" and "home inspectors" that perform inspections and demand panel upgrades for realtors or prospective buyers. To the best of my knowledge, the NEC does not specify when a panel must be changed or upgraded. I am aware that box fill and capacity constraints as well as safety issues can warrant an upgrade, but most of the "home inspectors" have dubious qualifications and give subjective recommendations. Any thoughts on NEC/NFPA requirements concerning upgrades would be appreciated!

I look for pitted stabs, heat or corrosion damage as well as a filled box. Also, if the panel is still being manufactured and trouble free, as opposed to FPE.

If a jackleg electrician has messed things up or an inspector has made a recomendation to upgrade they have done to upsell.

Often, the sale of the home hinges on the upgrade as most home inspections are sought & paid for by the buyer.

I then try to find out if additions to the load are planned and who will foot the bill, but try to stay ethical.

Like the dolphins.

 

[Rewire]

Some insurance companies will not insure a house with an old panel

 

[growler]

a couple apartment building owners and rental home owners were complaining about "jackleg electricians" and "home inspectors" that perform inspections and demand panel upgrades for realtors or prospective buyers. I am aware that box fill and capacity constraints as well as safety issues can warrant an upgrade, but most of the "home inspectors" have dubious qualifications and give subjective recommendations.

They really need to be more specific about which type of home inspector they are talking about. All home inspections are not the same. The private inspectors that work for private home buyers can only make recommendations. An inspector working for a bank or other lending institution can demand that certain things be changed before money is loaned on a property, FHA loans get this type of an inspection. This has more to do with the rules of the lending institution than anything in the NEC. There are other inspections that have to do with low income housing or section eight rental properties. These properties must meet certain qualifications before they can be rented or sold as low income housing.


I have never seen a home inspection report where a service up-grade or panel change was demanded just because the panel was old or for no reason. Maybe there is a 40 year old panel that you can't find a replacement cover for or a 60 amp fuse panel that won't meet FHA standards or a panel located inside the shower but there is normally a reason to change or move the panel other than just age.

What I find is that the sellers and renters of properties don't want to make changes even when there are plenty of good reasons to change a panel or even make a service upgrade.

If you are looking for a good honest group of people don't look for them among apartment and rental property owners. They would rent a property with smoke comming out of the panel. :grin:

 

[LarryFine]

Some insurance companies will not insure a house with an old panel

Do they define "old?" Do they specify brands, or years of age? Or just fused services?

Fuses are not inherently inferior to breakers, although underwriters think they are.

 

[nhfire77]

.

If you are looking for a good honest group of people don't look for them among apartment and rental property owners. They would rent a property with smoke comming out of the panel. :grin:

I resemble that remark!!!

If I am renting out a place that I own, I always have fused MDP's changed to circuit breakers. If its already breakers and not a Federal Pacific or other death trap, and installed properly, why change it?

 

[LarryFine]

I have never seen a home inspection report where a service up-grade or panel change was demanded just because the panel was old or for no reason. Maybe there is a 40 year old panel that you can't find a replacement cover for or a 60 amp fuse panel that won't meet FHA standards or a panel located inside the shower but there is normally a reason to change or move the panel other than just age.

I have had, let's say, less-than-stellar experiences with HI's as an electrician. Two in particular stand out in my memory. Both received glowing (pardon the pun) reports about the modern 200a breaker panel that was recently added.

Both were the results of illegal (i.e., non-permitted-or-inspected) service upgrades to accomodate what were likely-illegal central-HVAC installations. Both also had the tell-tale original meter base and 60/100a line-side service cables.


One of them originated as a POCO call, the result of which was a POCO disconnect because one line-side lug melted in the meter base. The young couple with a brand-new baby were without power in their very first home for 2 very warm days.

I pulled a permit as if I were doing the upgrade (which allowed the POCO to do their stuff free.) I had to install a 200a mter base, do about 4 hours of work in the panel (re-install cables with clamps, grounding, and fix a few things on the HVAC install.

The young couple had to pay about the cost of the service upgrade themselves, even though they just bought a house with one, endure 3 summer days without their new HVAC system, and pay for a HI report that missed the most important stuff.


The second one resulted in a fire, which started in the EGC in the water-heater NM cable, which, by the way, was the only EGC in the house. Because of tree damage from a storm, the service neutral became energized. The #10 EGC couldn't carry 200a. Gee.

This new panel install had zero cable clamps and zero grounding of any kind, other than the water-heater EGC, and the plumbing system's copper piping. The sad thing was this one was a QO panel, which had to be replaced in its entirety as a new service again.

I got a copy of the fire report and made a report for them to present to their insurance company, and, I hope, the city to go after whoever did the panel and HVAC work, and the HI for missing this stuff. But, he caught the life-threatening "double tap." :roll:


So, no, I don't have a lot of sympathy for HI's. I've read af many instances where they don't disclose really inportant stuff, because they're afraid of getting sued by the seller for "interfering" with the sale. That's their job!