panel changes / arc fault
- Thread starter nicknorth
- Start date
- Status
southernboys
Senior Member
Re: panel changes / arc fault
I believe you might have to down here in the south is a rule that 50% or more rteworked building has to be brought up to code. the good news is that some juridictions have yet to adapt to the new arc fault codes. however this presents a moral dilemina you know the new code and that the nec is a minimum standard so what do you do. to me if its prebid factor in the arcfault breakers and put them in. If after prebid eat the cost and try to get the labor done quicker then bid for. however that is just my opinion
I believe you might have to down here in the south is a rule that 50% or more rteworked building has to be brought up to code. the good news is that some juridictions have yet to adapt to the new arc fault codes. however this presents a moral dilemina you know the new code and that the nec is a minimum standard so what do you do. to me if its prebid factor in the arcfault breakers and put them in. If after prebid eat the cost and try to get the labor done quicker then bid for. however that is just my opinion
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: panel changes / arc fault
There are some people on the forum from Washington state that will chime in to answer that question for you with Washington's Code.
There are some people on the forum from Washington state that will chime in to answer that question for you with Washington's Code.
Re: panel changes / arc fault
All that is going to be done in each unit is the panel. Nothing else will be touched. But this is important because there's 100's of units so 1 or 2 maybe 3 arc fault breakers per unit would add up quick. I don't want to get stuck going back either. One job is in Seattle, WA and the other is in L and I area.
All that is going to be done in each unit is the panel. Nothing else will be touched. But this is important because there's 100's of units so 1 or 2 maybe 3 arc fault breakers per unit would add up quick. I don't want to get stuck going back either. One job is in Seattle, WA and the other is in L and I area.
Re: panel changes / arc fault
I don't know of any inspector anywhere that would allow you to update a panel without arc faults. That would be like rewiring a kitchen and not using gfi's. But I would check with the local inspector.
[ April 30, 2005, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: studiac ]
I don't know of any inspector anywhere that would allow you to update a panel without arc faults. That would be like rewiring a kitchen and not using gfi's. But I would check with the local inspector.
[ April 30, 2005, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: studiac ]
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
Re: panel changes / arc fault
you don't have to use arc faults in my area of MD, just so you know that there are inspectors that allow it.
you don't have to use arc faults in my area of MD, just so you know that there are inspectors that allow it.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: panel changes / arc fault
If all you are doing is replacing an old panel why would you need to upgrade anything else?
Now if you are rewiring everything then bringing the work you do up to current code (whatever that is in the jurisdiction the work is being done in) seems a likely requirement.
If all you are doing is replacing an old panel why would you need to upgrade anything else?
Now if you are rewiring everything then bringing the work you do up to current code (whatever that is in the jurisdiction the work is being done in) seems a likely requirement.
stud696981
Senior Member
Re: panel changes / arc fault
Since you are doing such a big job, I wouldn't roll the dice on this or you could suffer a big loss. Your best bet would be to contact the local city involved and get their inspectors opinion.
Here in Michigan I have heard (note: I haven't verified this yet) of a couple cities all ready requiring them on service upgrades.
Since you are doing such a big job, I wouldn't roll the dice on this or you could suffer a big loss. Your best bet would be to contact the local city involved and get their inspectors opinion.
Here in Michigan I have heard (note: I haven't verified this yet) of a couple cities all ready requiring them on service upgrades.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: panel changes / arc fault
It is the bedroom that requires AFCI not the panel.Will you be adding GFCI also.Also you said panel change and not upgrade.To me that says repair and not rewire a building.Bottom line is talk to local AHJ.While it is a good idea it will add cost that might make you high bidder.
It is the bedroom that requires AFCI not the panel.Will you be adding GFCI also.Also you said panel change and not upgrade.To me that says repair and not rewire a building.Bottom line is talk to local AHJ.While it is a good idea it will add cost that might make you high bidder.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: panel changes / arc fault
The NEC is applicable to new installations. Is this a bedroom remodel? No. Then there is no need to bring the bedroom up to current code. Would you require GFCI breakers for kitchen, bath, outdoor, basement, and garage receptacles be installed when you change a panel? The NEC does not. This is based on the current NEC. I believe there are some states that do require AFCI's on a panel upgrade and I think the NEC will require it in the next cycle.
The NEC is applicable to new installations. Is this a bedroom remodel? No. Then there is no need to bring the bedroom up to current code. Would you require GFCI breakers for kitchen, bath, outdoor, basement, and garage receptacles be installed when you change a panel? The NEC does not. This is based on the current NEC. I believe there are some states that do require AFCI's on a panel upgrade and I think the NEC will require it in the next cycle.
Re: panel changes / arc fault
I still dont think I could get away with out doing it, " All branch circuits that supply 125 volt, single phase, 15 and 20 amp outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit ."
That tells me it needs to be a breaker, and therfore if I remomve the breaker, weather it be for service upgrade or just because the current breaker has failed, I must replace it with a afci breaker.
I still dont think I could get away with out doing it, " All branch circuits that supply 125 volt, single phase, 15 and 20 amp outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit ."
That tells me it needs to be a breaker, and therfore if I remomve the breaker, weather it be for service upgrade or just because the current breaker has failed, I must replace it with a afci breaker.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: panel changes / arc fault
In my area, generally, the replacement of the service center, or the upgrade from fuses to circuit breakers, does not, in itself, result in adding AFCIs or GFCIs.
The logic is that no new branch circuit or outlets are being installed.
However, if the number of outlets in an older dwelling doesn't meet a minimum specified in local ordinance, the outlets must be added, and, since they are new outlets, they require AFCI protection on them (only the new ones in the bedroom).
On a side note. . .wasn't it Vermont that requires the use of AFCIs on a panel change out? I seem to recall that most, if not all, 120 Volt 15 & 20 Amp circuits throughout the dwelling were placed under AFCI protection?
In my area, generally, the replacement of the service center, or the upgrade from fuses to circuit breakers, does not, in itself, result in adding AFCIs or GFCIs.
The logic is that no new branch circuit or outlets are being installed.
However, if the number of outlets in an older dwelling doesn't meet a minimum specified in local ordinance, the outlets must be added, and, since they are new outlets, they require AFCI protection on them (only the new ones in the bedroom).
On a side note. . .wasn't it Vermont that requires the use of AFCIs on a panel change out? I seem to recall that most, if not all, 120 Volt 15 & 20 Amp circuits throughout the dwelling were placed under AFCI protection?
coppertreeelectric
Senior Member
Re: panel changes / arc fault
I 2nd that one. If we change out a panel we (in NY) dont have to upgrade to arc fault breakers. We do have to update the grounding and bonding, but not the branch ckts that we reconnect. It is my understanding that you need not bring items up to code unless the walls are opened up. As soon as the walls are opened it is considered new construction (in our area.)
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
Re: panel changes / arc fault
- Status