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Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

Merry Christmas
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cceinak

Member
Hello,
Just went over to a house tonight to check out a problem. Owners were complaing that house lights were dimming and getting bright at certain times. Went to the main electrical distribution panel first thing. Panel cover was warm and buzzing, hissing sound was coming from inside. Opened up panel and could see feeder conduit was glowing red at the locknut! Panel is fed with a very old three wire service. Branch Ckt romex is two wire, no ground. As i was there, lights really started changing brightness, went to the main house and they had the microwave oven going. Asked them a few questions and it appears that the light problem is happening when a large load is on. Ok, so it looks like we have a loose nuetral problem. In the panel we have no ground in the feeder pipe. I did see a bare ground wire coming up into the main panel and landing on the nuetral buss. This is my opinion. We have lost the nuetral. The circuit is being complete by using the conduit as the ground/nuetral. At certain times, when there is a high load, the 120 volt circuits are running into series, but the total load running up the neutral side of the 120 volt branch is not a full 120 becuase some of the volage is bleeding out through the conduit. that is why the light are getting bright, but not burning out completely. I asked them about lightbulbs buring out, and even then they had a bunch that were burnt out. I did however find it strange that all the equipment that is run off of transformers were not destroyed. Seems like they would be very easy to damage. Anyhow, both the people are very old and on meds, at the time i could not tear everything apart for fear of finding something that would keep the power off for any time at all. They need power to run medical equipent. I did however call the electrical company and told them that we might need to pull the meter and check then connection there, or possibly at the transformer or at the overhead connection. Anyhow, first thing in the morning I will go and start tearing everything apart while its light and I have the whole day. Does it sound like I am on the right track? Anybody have any other suggestions? The only problem I am wondering about is the bare ground that is landed on the nuetral bar at the panel should be going to ground also, maybe its not connected anymore, not sure, but this is a real problem that needs to be fixed tomorrow. I am really upset that I cant work on it right now, but it just was not a option, and I also asked how long the lights had been flickering and they said years. So they just need to get through tonight and hopefully I can find the problem tomorrow.
Thanks!
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

You need to get them out of the house and kill the power RIGHT NOW!! That is too dangerous to leave energized for even one additional second let alone all night.
Don
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
Occupation
Master Electrician
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

I would love to see some pictures of this, I would send them to Mike Holt. If you don't have a digital camera, you can request digital pictures from 35 mm when it is processed.
 

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

cceinak: I too advise you to do as Don has suggested. You should not have left a job in that condition.

This job may not be there in the morning. I hope you don't have to put on a black suit and tie.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

There are many appliance's that will cause a fire if over voltages! Any electric heating element, Light bulbs, electronics, transformers. A lost neutral is one of the most dangerous problems that can occur in a house or any where for that matter. A light bulb can reach temperatures that can melt the glass envelope and drip down onto any thing that is flammable. we know what happens when a heating element over heats as we seen the article about the electrician who got 5 years for miss wiring a 120v baseboard heater to 240v. When you have a customer that is on life support you need to see if they will let you contact a family member to allow them to stay at their house until this is repaired if they have no one then you must get in-touch with a manager at the utility to let them know that this person in on life support and needs immediate service. Our poco will allow us to make any repairs necessary to keep this service going when it involves life support. But in no way will I ever walk away from a lost neutral as Don and Bennie had said This customer might not be there by morning. Lets pray that this wont happen. but it is a very dangerous situation.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

Now seeing that your in Alaska this is even more important as if you burn out the furnace trying to get heat back on before every thing freezes up will critical. I cant see the POCO not responding to this as an emergency can be liable too. Hopefully the furnace is on 220. but thats the least of the problem. Just unloading every other breaker in the panel or all the ones on either leg and then moving the breakers to power just the necessary circuits would of been allot better than just leaving it.
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

No way you should have left it that way.I would have pulled that meter fast.If they are in need of electric to stay alive call someone that oversees them.If need be call 911, but that meter needs pulled right now.If there is still a house in the morning pull that meter,find the problem and fix.Should it burn tonight you could and should be sued as well as loose license.Should anyone die you might end up with criminal charges.
Few months ago i had a call like that and found it fast.The drop from poco was tight under a tree branch.Had probably rubbed for years till neutral broke.Cure was easy breakers off now.Exsplain and show customer the problem and call poco for 911 service.There is no option to allow it to be on.
 

cceinak

Member
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

Hi guys,
first off, thank you so much for responding. I am not in Alaska right now, actually I am in Idaho. The "customers are my grandparents as I am home on holiday to see them, they are both very sick. I was blown away when I arrived and my uncle told me of the problem. From what they say, this has been going on for a very long time. Sure wish they would have called me or got a qualified electrician! I just went back over to their house and looked at things again. I think i kind of miss spoke when i said the locknut was glowing red. It gets red in one spot of the locknut when a heavy load is on, but only then. But... yes, its a terrible problem that I need to fix right now. Also, the panel is warm, not hot, but warm. If i take a insulated screwdriver and rub it on the top of the locknut I will get a great deal of sparks between the tip of the screwdriver and the metal of the locknut. not really sure about the theory of that, but I am sure one of you can help me out. The screwdriver is isolated, so where is the potential at? I also forgot to mention that I told them not to use any demanding loads and the house has all the lights turned off. We adjusted the hospital bed as it had a 120E motor load and then I tried to get as many circuits off that I could. Tomorrow first thing I am going to jump into it as my grandfather is going to the hospital. They have a gas heater that doesnt require AC so I am going to get that fired up. I am going to first thing call the power company cut the locks on the meter, and then pull it. I do have a digital camera and will take as many pictures as I can. Its just a huge bummer to get off a plane and right off the bat see something like this. I am really glad I am here to do something about it, but really stressed at the same time. I wish I would have know about it this morning and not late this afternoon! Guess I should visit my relatives more often and take the time to look at the electrical distribution.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

Originally posted by cceinak:
I think i kind of miss spoke when i said the locknut was glowing red. It gets red in one spot of the locknut when a heavy load is on, but only then. But... yes, its a terrible problem that I need to fix right now. Also, the panel is warm, not hot, but warm. If i take a insulated screwdriver and rub it on the top of the locknut I will get a great deal of sparks between the tip of the screwdriver and the metal of the locknut. not really sure about the theory of that
As you know and others have pointed out this is a serious condition that needs fixing ASAP.

You are correct that the conduit is carrying part or all of the load.

When you put your screwdriver in there you are providing another connection so you see some sparks.

If this has been going on for a long time the connection between the panel and conduit will have developed a high resistance and the screw driver is providing a path of less resistance.

Let us know what you find, I will guess you lost the neutral on the load side of the meter.

The conduit must be still bonded if it is carrying current the only way I see that as possible is the utility neutral is still good to the meter enclosure.

Just a wild *** guess though.
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

with any luck you will find just a bad neutral.Sounds like another house needing a rewire
but money might be limited.In the last 2 years i have seen more house fires than most electricians see all there life.Often i see the results of years of add ons and poor handyman type work.What is surprising is that the insurance companies not only pay for repairing the fire damage but also to upgrade the house to current codes or at least partial.Had one that the 30 amp screw fuse(better than a penny) finally took its toll on the 2 20 amp circuits it fed.They were very lucky as the 2 wire romex burned itself open and the fire was very limited to a small area.The cost to rewire the circuit that burned was maybe $100 but the service repair/replace cost a lot more.
It is becoming a standard requirement from insurance companies to have older homes checked by licensed electricians before they write a new policy.As you can guess most have years of handyman type repairs that need fixed before i sign them off.Biggest thing i see is non ground receptacles having been replaced with grounded ones.
 

electricman2

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

The conduit must be still bonded if it is carrying current the only way I see that as possible is the utility neutral is still good to the meter enclosure.
I agree with Bob. If the conduit is carrying the neutral load it's probably not a POCO problem.
 

cceinak

Member
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

Hey everyone, I got the problem fixed, yep, just a loose nuetral at the lug. The lug was completely tight, but the copper was not attached to the lug at all. I took a bunch of pictures. You should see the 11/4 emt connector that was attached to the panel. It had been used as the nuetral probably for year. I looked into the crawl space, the 11/4 feeder ran through the crawl, and went directly up into the panel via a LB. I guess a a furnace guy or somebody had been crawling around down there a few years ago. He must have tried to crawl over the EMT, it was not strapped of course, just goes flying up into the panel. Anyhow the connector was really loose and the emt was hardly connected to the compression connector at all. The locknut jaws and the connector threads were complete burnt away on most all spots. To say the least, the connector was not really well bonded to the panel! I took the sheetrock off the botom area of the panel, and at high load, the connector base and the panel would glow red! Got some good pictures of that also. Anyhow, I fixed the problem and had a local electrician come over and told him what i wanted. Here really soon, he will put in complete new main distribution panel new connector on feeder, new feeder wires, as they are completely discolored and I am sure the insulation has been really degraded and a new 200 amp meter main outside.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the help. It was long night last night. Got up a few times and went over to make sure things were ok. Going to go crash and get some sleep.
 

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

Congratulations, all's well that ends well. Good decision to replace the entire service.

Now you don't have to clean the black suit ;)
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

Very lucky that it held up for that extra few hours.Thinking how bad it would have been if that guy had broken the connection when he crawled over it.Let this teach others about walking away from something like this.We could just as easy be reading that the house burned last night.
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: Panel is Hot! Feeder conduit glowing!

It is nice to see genuine concern for other people you do not even know.
How about the guys on this forum possibly helping to avert a very serious problem.
I say congrates to all for a happy ending for the holiday season. :D

Pierre
 
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