Panel Location - WOW

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ramdiesel3500

ramdiesel3500

Senior Member
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Bloomington IN
A good friend of mine asked me to look at a problem in the service panel of his home. When I arrived at his house he invited me in and we walked to the kitchen. I looked around and no panel in sight. I asked the obvious question; "where is your panel?" He walked over to the upper corner kitchen cabinet, opened the door, and began to removed dishes. Once all the dishes were on the countertop, then he removed the shelves so that he could open up the panel door. :shock:

What would you suggest to a good friend of yours in this situation???
 
Well, the "no cost suggestion" would be to suggest that your friend get used to the fact that every time anyone (like yourself) has to do anything in that panel, even just to remove its cover to look inside, it will require power to be removed from the entire house. 110.26 does not require working clearance for equipment that is not likely to require work while energized.

But that is not the right suggestion, or at least not the completely suggestion. This is a safety issue. Friends don't let friends live in unsafe conditions. I have to add that the safety issue only comes into play when someone removes the panel cover. But your friend might have some DIY inclinations, and might try that much on his own. Nevertheless, that panel should be moved. You can look around for a better location, and can give an estimate of the costs.

But let me reiterate, repeat, and generally say again, DO NOT, I mean DO NOT, do even so much as to remove the panel cover, until you turn off power to the whole house. If you are not sure why I am giving this such emphasis, just ask, and I'll be glad to explain. Friends don't let friends get killed, and neither the friend you mentioned nor your friends from this Forum should ever let you put yourself in danger.
 
Thanks Charlie
In the event that I cannot convince him to move the panel, I will definitely advise that he kill power to this panel before working on it! Luckily, his service was relocated to his detached garage some years ago and the house was then sub-fed from the garage. So he has a 100A circuit breaker he can turn off in the event he needs to get in there! However, I really really want to see that panel get moved to a better place!!! I'll keep nudging him gently in that direction!
Thanks again!

edited for spelling! duh!
 
Recently did a service upgrade. Wish I took a picture...moved panel to exterior wall. Converted old panel to a j-box.
 
That room might not have been the kitchen 50 years ago, and there might have been room then. In any event, it is clear that the panel was there before the cabinets, and some "clever" person thought it would be just fine, even a clever use of space, to put the cabinet over it. May the Almighty save us from the clever! :wink:
 
ramdiesel3500 said:
I'll keep nudging him gently in that direction!
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Perhaps you could use this, to help with your nudging:
Two Things Every Homeowner Should Know About Electrical Safety

Actually, there are many things every homeowner should know. Here are two of them that many homeowners do not know.

Thing One: The Danger
  • Electricity can kill you.
  • It takes less than one amp for electricity to kill you.
  • It takes more than 20 amps to make a circuit breaker trip open.
  • CONCLUSION: A circuit breaker will never, NEVER save your life.
  • THEREFORE: Never work on live circuits. Never open the covers to electrical devices without removing power first. Never try to get toast from a toaster with a knife (unless you unplug the toaster first). And never, NEVER believe that you know what you are doing, and that it can't happen to you.

Thing Two: Keep the Area In Front of the Panel Clear
  • Electric current flowing through a person's body causes muscles to contract.
  • That means that if you touch a live, 120 volt wire with your hand, your hand is going to collapse into a fist, and your fist might just be holding on to the live wire.
  • No matter what your brain is telling your fist (i.e., "I'm the brains of this outfit, and I command you to open up and let go of the wire"), the current flowing through your hand will keep your fist closed around the wire.
  • Soon enough, you will lose all control of the muscles in your body.
  • If you are lucky, when your body collapses towards the ground, the weight of your falling body will pull your hand away from the wire. That may be the one and only one thing that might save your life.
  • HOWEVER, if there was some obstruction that prevented your body from falling away from the power source, you might never be able to let go, and you might die.
  • That is the reason that the NEC requires working space to be reserved in front of electrical panels.
  • THEREFORE, before you even think about opening up a live electrical panel or other electrical component, make sure that there is sufficient working space around the equipment. First, you will need to room in order to work safely (you don't want to trip over something and fall into the panel). Secondly, you might just need the room to fall.
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Man I could have used this list a couple weeks ago. I wanted to do some work at my church. I opened up the electrical closet door and it was full of junk. I explained to the members we must keep this closet clear at all times. Two weeks later a ballast burned up setting off the fire alarm. The fire marshall was happy to see this area was clear so he could get to the fire alarm panel and silence the system. Members have it's privileges. :D
 
Charlie
You sound very emotional in your first post, more so than usual...

There are millions of panels in cabinets, especially old multifamily dwelling buildings.

It is funny, but I thought that OSHA requirements did not permit work on live panels in any location... shouldn't we be this concerned wherever we work on panels????
 
Thanks everyone for your replies!
Yes, from what I could tell, the kitchen was part of a remodel of this old house. It appears the panel was originally located in a bedroom. This forum is absolutely wonderful. I never thought about flipping the panel around. In this case, the panel is on an outer wall, but I believe we could install a 3R panel outside and fix the problem. Is there any reason why a home cannot be fed from a panel on the exterior wall?
 
An exterior panel is permitted by code. I once got a call from a homeowner crying cuz the panel was outside & someone told her that it was illegal due to water & electricity :roll:
 
ramdiesel3500 said:
In this case, the panel is on an outer wall, but I believe we could install a 3R panel outside and fix the problem. Is there any reason why a home cannot be fed from a panel on the exterior wall?
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I used to live in NC. Some of the houses we did had 3R panels outside next to the meter. Most (99%) of the houses on the coast did not have basements.
 
pierre said:
Charlie, You sound very emotional in your first post, more so than usual...
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Blame (or perhaps "credit" would be a better term) Mike Holt for that one. He is the person who woke me up to the hazards involved when the working clearance is not maintained. If you ever meet him, ask him to tell you his "I am alive because I fell" story. Make sure he includes the part (shortly before he fell) about telling himself " Let go, you idiot, you're going to die. Let go, you idiot, you're going to die."

Ever since I first heard that story four years ago (and I trust Mike will not mind my mentioning it here), I have rigorously defended the space that should be reserved in front of electrical panels. My intent, in getting (as you say) more emotional than usual, is to convey a sense of the importance of 110.26 to those members who are either new to the profession or who have 20 years in the business but never knew the real "safety reason" for working clearance.
 
If I might be allowed to add to Charlie's post, lets not forget about the ark blast concerns when working in an area in front of a live exposed panel. This is another concern besides electrical shock that presents itself while working on energized circuits. But none of us here ever do any of that stuff right???
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
I have seen my fair share of bad choices.What was the code on this 50 years ago ?
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Much of early Levittown, Long Island, had the meter pan next to the side kitchen door, and the 6-fuse box located about 30" above the side of the stovetop.

levittown1.gif



Levittown%20aerial%20Route%2013.jpg


In this image below, the fuse box would be located just above and to the right of the range. (Next to the exaust fan, in the space between the upper and lower kitchen cabinets.)

open.jpg


Levitt progressed from 40a 120v services with fuse box, to a 100a 220v circuit breaker panel when the homes grew larger, and all-electric appliances became all the rage. But still, the panels were purposely located where most of the loads served were located - in the kitchens. In the photo below, the panel would be located right above the utensil rack.

GE-ad.jpg
 
macmikeman said:
If I might be allowed to add to Charlie's post, lets not forget about the ark blast concerns when working in an area in front of a live exposed panel. This is another concern besides electrical shock that presents itself while working on energized circuits. But none of us here ever do any of that stuff right???
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I think 9 out of 10 of us don't take this threat seriously. Although educated about it I have to admit that I don't always take it as seriously as I should in some circumstances.

We do have a safety policy and my guys are educated as well. We follow nfpa70E.

With that said, one of my guys managed to blow up a panel big time last week. 3 phase 120/208. Laid an mc cable across the bussbar. I wasn't on site, but literally caught the panel on fire with some "explosions". I had just left, and got back within 3 minutes. Without seeing it actually happen, sounds like an arc flash. They put it out with an extinguisher. Minor burn on one hand. Out for a few weeks. Scared the heck out of him and taught a lesson he'll never forget.

Of course I then had to spend the next 6 hours replacing panel.

I'll maybe post a picture of the panel.
 
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