Panel Upgrade

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MattG0311

Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Apprentice Wireman
I am working on a pre 70s home with a very old QO panel that’s in poor condition. I recently put a new service on the home with a new main panel and have refed the older panel with 1-1-1-3 SER and isolated the neutral from grounding.

Now with that said, who ever previously wired the home wired the grounding type receptacles with old 3 conductor nonmetallic cable with no grounding wire. He landed the black and whites to the neutral bar (when it was still a main panel) and the red to the breakers.

Looking in the sacred text, 250.119 (B) states: “One or more insulated conductors in a multi conductor cable, at the time of installation, shall be permitted to be permanently identified as equipment grounding conductors at each end and at every point where the conductors are accessible by one of the following means…”

So my question is, while I upgrade this old rusty junk panel to a new subpanel, after I go through the whole house and identify the grounding conductor at every point of access, and appropriately terminate them isolated from the grounded conductors with new identification, will I be code compliant? I know it’s not “time of installation,” but the only alternative is to rip out all the old NM and rewire the whole house…Oh, and just to add, it is all copper wiring, no aluminum to worry about.

Thanks!
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
If it were me, I would use the black and white as circuit conductors, and strip the red to use as the EGC.
That's typically what I've seen whenever the red is used and there's no bare.

It's the best, imho, because that's what anyone should expect to see if anything is worked on later.

Just like driving a car, the best way is whatever others would be expecting
 

Knuckle Dragger

Master Electrician Electrical Contractor 01752
Location
Marlborough, Massachusetts USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If it were me, I would use the black and white as circuit conductors, and strip the red to use as the EGC.
Good idea or
You could take it or leave it
Before you do that make sure you go through the house and find every single splice and reconfigure them before you do it in the panel.
It would really "stink" if the blacks were cut short and stripped down and you had to make multiple splices in each box to make the blacks useable.
 

MattG0311

Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Apprentice Wireman
Good idea or
You could take it or leave it
Before you do that make sure you go through the house and find every single splice and reconfigure them before you do it in the panel.
It would really "stink" if the blacks were cut short and stripped down and you had to make multiple splices in each box to make the blacks useable.
Very true. It’s definitely going to take time. Of course nothing is labeled so I’ll be playing with a circuit tracer all day and pulling open lots and lots of boxes
 

Knuckle Dragger

Master Electrician Electrical Contractor 01752
Location
Marlborough, Massachusetts USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Very true. It’s definitely going to take time. Of course nothing is labeled so I’ll be playing with a circuit tracer all day and pulling open lots and lots of boxes
Good luck! I'm confident that you'll do a thorough job.
It always satisfyingly when you know you did your best and it all works out well.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
How would a dwelling unit comply with the first sentence of 250.119(B)?

Where the conditions of maintenance
and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service
the installation
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
How would a dwelling unit comply with the first sentence of 250.119(B)?
It doesn't, but it's still what I would do if faced with that same situation. So sue me.

I've used the stripped red as the regular EGC and the green for I.G. when using MC.
 

MattG0311

Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Apprentice Wireman
How would a dwelling unit comply with the first sentence of 250.119(B)?

Where the conditions of maintenance
and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service
the installation
Are you using the 2020 NEC? I’m looking at mine and I don’t see that sentence anywhere in 250.119
 

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ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Are you using the 2020 NEC? I’m looking at mine and I don’t see that sentence anywhere in 250.119

Previous code cycles limited that section to condition of maintenance supervision that ensure qualified persons touch it, and such conditions rarely exist outside of industrial zones or commercial-properly managers using qualified maintenance personnel.

While the letter of the 2020 code law has removed that language, AHJ's are not likely to recognize it, being accustomed to red tag this DIY or handy-person's hack job wiring.

Most AHJ's in my area still haven't got the code changes adopted years ago with 406.4(D), much less 210.12(B), and I doubt their going to get the memo on this 250.119 change, unless plans specifically show it that way.
 

MattG0311

Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Apprentice Wireman
Previous code cycles limited that section to condition of maintenance supervision that ensure qualified persons touch it, and such conditions rarely exist outside of industrial zones or commercial-properly managers using qualified maintenance personnel.

While the letter of the 2020 code law has removed that language, AHJ's are not likely to recognize it, being accustomed to red tag this DIY or handy-person's hack job wiring.

Most AHJ's in my area still haven't got the code changes adopted years ago with 406.4(D), much less 210.12(B), and I doubt their going to get the memo on this 250.119 change, unless plans specifically show it that way.
Sounds like something a pleasant and tactful conversation can easily fix!
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Very true. It’s definitely going to take time. Of course nothing is labeled so I’ll be playing with a circuit tracer all day and pulling open lots and lots of boxes
Word of caution. I've seen a lot of old residential installations that is indicative of what you found that also had many buried jbox and splice points and ones that combined neutrals from multiple circuits and are hidden or buried.
 

MattG0311

Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Apprentice Wireman
Word of caution. I've seen a lot of old residential installations that is indicative of what you found that also had many buried jbox and splice points and ones that combined neutrals from multiple circuits and are hidden or buried.
Half the house the wiring seems very well done for the time it was installed. The other half…I can see myself finding those exact problems.
 
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