Panelboard outlet

Status
Not open for further replies.
FionaZuppa

FionaZuppa

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occupation
Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
if you homerun branch ckt from panelboard to a microwave, no cap-cord, is the panelboard an outlet?
 
FionaZuppa said:
then what does art 100 "outlet" mean? the panelboard is certainly a point in/on the wiring system, no ?
Click to expand...
The point at which you splice from the building wiring in the "wiring system" to the microwave wiring in the "utilization equipment" will be the outlet. If the microwave has a wiring compartment and you bring building wiring into it, then the wiring compartment will be the outlet. If it has a factory supplied whip and you provide a junction box in which you splice the whip to the building wiring, then the junction box will be the outlet.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
The point at which you splice from the building wiring in the "wiring system" to the microwave wiring in the "utilization equipment" will be the outlet. If the microwave has a wiring compartment and you bring building wiring into it, then the wiring compartment will be the outlet. If it has a factory supplied whip and you provide a junction box in which you splice the whip to the building wiring, then the junction box will be the outlet.

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...

hmmm. what splice?

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
Click to expand...

my ckt wire goes from screw terminals on ocpd & bus bar to screw terminals on microwave. where then exactly is the point at which current is taken? is it only the ends of a ckt or tap that is considered the point at which current is taken?
 
In that example I would say that your wire is part of the building wiring system and the terminal strip in the microwave is the outlet.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Panelboard: a single panel or group of panel units designed for assembly in the form of a single panel, including buses and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped with or without switches for the control of light, heat, or power circuits.

Two entirely different things.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Panelboard: a single panel or group of panel units designed for assembly in the form of a single panel, including buses and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped with or without switches for the control of light, heat, or power circuits.

Two entirely different things.
Click to expand...

well, when i attach wire to the panelboard, that connection is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken, the wire itself is only the transmission line of such current :thumbsup:

is such "point" at the end of lengths of wire??
care to show us the "end" of the wiring system in terms of "current"? there is none! its a loop.
 
FionaZuppa said:
well, when i attach wire to the panelboard, that connection is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken, the wire itself is only the transmission line of such current :thumbsup:

is such "point" at the end of lengths of wire??
care to show us the "end" of the wiring system in terms of "current"? there is none! its a loop.
Click to expand...
Send in a PI to get that definition changed, good luck, you will need to come up with better definition then the existing as well as some supporting literature to convince the CMP why it needs changed.
 
FionaZuppa said:
well, when i attach wire to the panelboard, that connection is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken
Click to expand...
I think implicit in the definition is the idea that current is taken from the wiring system, i.e. the current leaves the premises wiring system. The panelboard and the building wire are both part of the premises wiring system, so that point is not an outlet. The outlet occurs on the boundary of the premises wiring system.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
the idea that current is taken from the wiring system, i.e. the current leaves the premises wiring system.
Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...

current never "leaves" the wiring system, it goes one way, and returns the other way, it never leaves. current can only occur in a loop.

the current vectors are identical when looking at the current flows through each conductor at any given time. note though, if you look only at one conductor at a time, at any time t current exits the panelboard but it enters the util equip, at that same time t the current vector on the other conductor is simply cos(180) in direction and cos(0) in magnitude, entering panelboard & exiting util equip.

so at what point does current "leave" the wiring? there is no point when you apply current vectors to AC or DC. current is exiting and entering both sides of any closed ckt at any time t, except when the current phase hits the zero crossing, etc.
 
Last edited:
FionaZuppa said:
current never "leaves" the wiring system, it goes one way, and returns the other way, it never leaves. current can only occur in a loop.

the current vectors are identical when looking at the current flows through each conductor at any given time. note though, if you look only at one conductor at a time, at any time t current exits the panelboard but it enters the util equip, at that same time t the current vector on the other conductor is simply cos(180) in direction and cos(0) in magnitude, entering panelboard & exiting util equip.

so at what point does current "leave" the wiring? there is no point when you apply current vectors to AC or DC. current is exiting and entering both sides of any closed ckt at any time t, except when the current phase hits the zero crossing, etc.
Click to expand...

That's getting pretty pedantic and making a fairly understandable definition seem complicated for no good reason. However, you could make it more technically correct by saying an "outlet" is where POWER leaves the premises wiring system and enters utilization equipment.
 
mpoulton said:
That's getting pretty pedantic and making a fairly understandable definition seem complicated for no good reason. However, you could make it more technically correct by saying an "outlet" is where POWER leaves the premises wiring system and enters utilization equipment.
Click to expand...


Energy, actually.
 
mpoulton said:
That's getting pretty pedantic and making a fairly understandable definition seem complicated for no good reason. However, you could make it more technically correct by saying an "outlet" is where POWER leaves the premises wiring system and enters utilization equipment.
Click to expand...

the perhaps the definition should be changed, the definition says "current".
the code writing folks should know what the terms are and how things work, yes?

just another blunder of many within NEC books.

but to your comment, where is the power before is leaves the wiring?


if i have a "outlet" with duplex receptacle, nothing plugged in, no power or energy or current is leaving nor entering that duplex, so is it an "outlet"?
 
FionaZuppa said:
current never "leaves" the wiring system, it goes one way, and returns the other way, it never leaves. current can only occur in a loop.
Click to expand...

If you have just the unconnected ends of conductors then you do not have a closed loop. The addition of the 'non-premises wiring' device, closes the loop (i.e. it completes a parallel path), thus allowing current to flow 'out' (e.g. from source to load) and back in.

On the other hand, a switch creates a series circuit (i.e. the current out is equal to the current in) therefore it is not an outlet.
 
jim dungar said:
If you have just the unconnected ends of conductors then you do not have a closed loop. The addition of the 'non-premises wiring' device, closes the loop (i.e. it completes a parallel path), thus allowing current to flow 'out' (e.g. from source to load) and back in.

On the other hand, a switch creates a series circuit (i.e. the current out is equal to the current in) therefore it is not an outlet.
Click to expand...

whaaaaa?
if the loopy is no closey, then there aint no current flowy, so if no current is taken, is it an outlet? and, current flow is not just source to load, its also load to source :thumbsup:

and absolutely not, there is no parallel path for current in single phase. current flows in series, a conductor carries amps to the device, the other conductor carries the same amps back. would it really matter if i amp clamped the black vs white wire ??

and sure, a switch simply breaks the current flow of one or more conductors at some point along the wiring.
 
Wow reading this makes my head hurt. Why do we make things so complicated?? current taken away, it is not taken away, it stays on the loopy circuits......????:happysad::happysad::happysad:

IMO, the outlet in the OP case is the end of the NM cable (assuming you are using romex) right before it gets connected to the microwave. That is the outlet. Now, if the AHJ proves or sees otherwise then I may consider his/her interpretation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top