Parallel EGCs

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hey_poolboy

hey_poolboy

Senior Member
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Illinois
Went on a service call today that involved a GFCI tripping. Seems as though the spa breaker would trip at very irregular intervals. The spa had a factory recommended 60a GFCI but the spa was three wire. The installer ran 6/3 UF to the spa and hooked the grounded conductor to the load neut. on the GFI, but at the tub it was just taped off and the spa has no place on which to terminate it.

Now the questions.
1. would this possibly act as an "antenna" and trip the GFI from incuced voltage on the grounded conductor?

2. If so, how can it be fixed?

3. If I land both ends of the conductor with the EGC and create a parallel EGC is that OK?

4. Would it be better to leave it un-terminated on both ends?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks,
Mike
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

You say 6-3. Did you mean 6-2 w ground or 6-3 w ground. Did you mean the "grounding" conductor was connected to the load neutral instead of the "grounded" conductor. If not I guarantee it is tripping. Does the tub have any 120loads?
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

6-3 w/ ground
Grounded (neutral) conductor was terminated to load neutral as it would be if there were 120v loads present.

No 120v loads, and the tub is listed as a three
wire appliance. UL sicker on the can and just above it a sicker that says "Attention electrician, this is a three wire appliance"
The EGC is terminated properly, just not the grounded conductor.
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

You sir are correct. ;)
My problem is that the installer has installed cable through the house rather than piping it an installing individual conductors. I just want to know if my hypothesis on the neutral conductor not being landed in the spa sounds like a good cause for the nuisance trips. If so, I cant just yank it out, so I just wanted to know which solution would be best. leave it loose on both ends, or mark it green and use it as a parallel EGC if permissible.
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

Hypothesis, provisional conjecture to guide investigation. Could be stranger things haaaapen. I doubt it.
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

I now understand your question but do not have a code answer. I would leave the white conductor capped off. Still gotta determine whats causing the intermittant trip. Lotsa Luck.
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

This is a question more than a reply.
What would it hurt to make the connection you suggested. If marked with green, connected on both ends, just to see if your theory is correct?
I'd certainly look elsewhere for the culprit while I was at it.
Johnny
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

that's what I wanted to know. :roll:
I have disconnected it from the breaker for now, just to see if there is a difference in the nuisance trips. and i will look other places, but If this reduces/eliminates the trips I want to know if I am prohibitted from turning it into a parallel equipment ground.
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

hey-poolboy, I have hooked up several 3 wire spas. Does your 6-3wg come from the panel inside the house to a disconnect outside then to the spa? Where is your GFCI at. In the house or outside in your disconnect for your spa?
Jim
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

The original installer neglected to install a disconnect outside. :( The GFI is in the house.
I think I know where you are going.

I thought of installing a wp enclosure outside and moving the gfi to there and installing a new short section of wire to the tub. I may see if leaving the grounded conductor loose has any effect on the nuisance trips first.

mike
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

The neutral wire on the GFCI breaker must be connected to the panel's neutral bus, but if the load has no neutral, nothing should be connected to the breaker's neutral terminal.

I would suggest attaching the 6-3's white directly to the panel's neutral bus, and not the breaker's neutral terminal.
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

Thanks Larry.

What shall I do with the end in the spa? let it hang. There is no place to land it except with the EGC's.
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

hey_poolboy,
I would do exactly what you have done. Since there is no need for a grounded circuit conductor, leave it capped off at both ends. Paralleling it to the equipment ground is redundant and would not serve a purpose. It may also be a violation since Article 310 says we cannot parallel anything under 1/0(not sure is that applies to EGC's).
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

you do need a dissconnect at the spa,but since you already have a GFI at the house ,just get a dissconnect .If the spa says it is a 3 wire ,does'nt that mean two hots and a nuetral ? the spa has to have a grnd connection ,all the metal in the spa is bonded together
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

26,

Yes it needs a disconnect, but a three wire appliance would be like a dryer. No neutral, it isn't used since there are no 120V loads. Just two hots and a EGC.

mike
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

Originally posted by hey_poolboy:
Thanks Larry.

What shall I do with the end in the spa? let it hang. There is no place to land it except with the EGC's.
Click to expand...
Yes, at the spa end, just cap it off. I wouldn't trim it just in case the spa is ever replaced with one that does need a neutral.
 
Re: Parallel EGCs

Just to update this I thought I would share the results.

I removed the grounded conductor from the breaker
and left it capped on both ends. Since this there have been no nuisance trips.

I believe I wil install the d-con. and eliminate the grounded conductor from the d-con to the spa and call it good.

thanks,
mike

[ October 20, 2005, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: hey_poolboy ]
 
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