Passing through a wireway

[Tulsa Electrician]

I have a question on a wire way.
Let's say we have a 6x6 wire way and have a three inch EMT into top and then a three inch out the bottom. The one out the top is a Fedder from a SDS and the one directly below it is a nipple (18") into a panel. No deflection, no splicing just passing straight through. Would the 8 times apply.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Before some ask, the wire way long dimension is running horizontal and the three inch is running vertical. Conductors passing straight through the 6" portion.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It depends on how your AHJ reads the language in 376.23(B). I would not have an issue with that installation, but I am sure some would. Now if the nipples were offset, that would be different as far as I am concerned.

 

[jaggedben]

Perhaps argue that it is not 'used as a pull box'. To argue this, your two conduits together would have to have no more than 360deg of bends between other pull points.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Got ya, it will be pulled straight through. Bonding bushing on each connector since it from and SDS.
Sure wish the code would define better. Good thing there on the 2014 code.

Thank you

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Got ya, it will be pulled straight through. Bonding bushing on each connector since it from and SDS.
Sure wish the code would define better. Good thing there on the 2014 code.

Thank you

SDS does not require bonding bushings. The only need for such would be if you have concentric KOs with some of the rings remaining in the wireway.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Did a little more reading today.
2014 NEC
373.23 (B)
Metal wireways used as a pull box.
The keyword " used"

So if not used due to required by other area of the code like 360 + degrees etc. One can conclude it is not USED as a pull box.

So just Cruse on through.

I would also like to share what my 2011 NEC calculation box says. This book is study guide published by C&M enterprises.

" If the conductors enter or exit the auxiliary gutter or wireway via a raceway and are ran through the gutter to connect to the terminals of equipment for which the auxiliary gutter or wireway is supplementing the wiring space ( e.g. a panel board or switchboard) then the requirements of Section 314.28 (A) (1) and (A) (2) are not applicable to the installation."

So the code did do a good job. I just need to do a better job reading and understand what I was reading.

 

[jaggedben]

Seems like an interpretation. I agree with it but the AHJ may not. FWIW, I have seen plenty of installations that were seemingly passed while ignoring the section in question.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Did a little more reading today.
2014 NEC
373.23 (B)
Metal wireways used as a pull box.
The keyword " used"

So if not used due to required by other area of the code like 360 + degrees etc. One can conclude it is not USED as a pull box.

So just Cruse on through.

I would also like to share what my 2011 NEC calculation box says. This book is study guide published by C&M enterprises.

" If the conductors enter or exit the auxiliary gutter or wireway via a raceway and are ran through the gutter to connect to the terminals of equipment for which the auxiliary gutter or wireway is supplementing the wiring space ( e.g. a panel board or switchboard) then the requirements of Section 314.28 (A) (1) and (A) (2) are not applicable to the installation."

So the code did do a good job. I just need to do a better job reading and understand what I was reading.

Yes the key word is "used" and is not "required" Even where the wireway is not a required pull point it may be used as such. The issue is the damage to the conductor where the wireway is used as a pull point but not large enough to permit it to be used as such without potential damage to the conductors.

I tried to expand the rule to say that where the conductor extends more than 15' beyond the wireway in either direction the wireway is being used as a pull point. Where the wire run in one direction is short, there is much less risk of damage to the conductors than were long lengths are being pulled out and then fed back into the wireway. The PI was rejected.

However the code still needs to provide guidance as to what "used as a pull box" actually means.

Again for this installation, I don't see any issue as it is very unlikely that the wire way was used as a pull box and I would not red tag the installation, but your AHJ might.

As far as the quoted language from the study guide, there is absolutely nothing in the code language to support that idea.

 

[jap]

I disagree with the length the wire would travel inside a wireway.

Actually, as anyone knows who's been in the field, it's the short runs and turns that damage the wire, not the long runs.

In my opinion, the only way the inspector could fail a wireway being "used" as a pull point , would be if he stayed to actually witness the violation on wire pulling day.

Otherwise, there would be no way on knowing if the wireway was used as a pull point or the wire was pulled straight through it.

With that being said, I could see why an expanded rule would not be accepted.

JAP>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I disagree with the length the wire would travel inside a wireway.

Actually, as anyone knows who's been in the field, it's the short runs and turns that damage the wire, not the long runs.

In my opinion, the only way the inspector could fail a wireway being "used" as a pull point , would be if he stayed to actually witness the violation on wire pulling day.

Otherwise, there would be no way on knowing if the wireway was used as a pull point or the wire was pulled straight through it.

With that being said, I could see why an expanded rule would not be accepted.

JAP>

My proposal did not have anything to do with the length of the conductor in the wireway...it was the shortest length that extended beyond the wire way and would have automatically required "pull box sizing" where that shortest length exceed 15'.

As far as the AHJ knowing, there may be evidence left where it has been used as a pull box....scrapes and digs into the insulation at the end of the conductor, or small pieces of the insulation in the wireway.

 

[jap]

My proposal did not have anything to do with the length of the conductor in the wireway...it was the shortest length that extended beyond the wire way and would have automatically required "pull box sizing" where that shortest length exceed 15'.

As far as the AHJ knowing, there may be evidence left where it has been used as a pull box....scrapes and digs into the insulation at the end of the conductor, or small pieces of the insulation in the wireway.

Which is the reasoning for the rule and the amo needed for the inspectors to fail a shoddy install.

JAP>

 

[jap]

My proposal did not have anything to do with the length of the conductor in the wireway...it was the shortest length that extended beyond the wire way and would have automatically required "pull box sizing" where that shortest length exceed 15'.

As far as the AHJ knowing, there may be evidence left where it has been used as a pull box....scrapes and digs into the insulation at the end of the conductor, or small pieces of the insulation in the wireway.

What's magical about 15' as far as determining if you're using the wireway as a pull point is going to damage the wire or not?

Most damage occurs by "NOT" pulling the longer wire out and feeding it back in.

An electrician doesn't want his wire pull to be damaged or any more difficult than it needs to be.

JAP>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What's magical about 15' as far as determining if you're using the wireway as a pull point is going to damage the wire or not?

Most damage occurs by "NOT" pulling the longer wire out and feeding it back in.

An electrician doesn't want his wire pull to be damaged or any more difficult than it needs to be.

JAP>

There is no magic about 15'....just a starting point. The damage is from where the size of the opening is too small to permit the bend to fit in when you pull it the second direction. The shorter the length being fed back in the easier it is to prevent damage even where the opening is undersized.

As far a the electrician and the use of a wireway sized to be used as a pull box, that is not typically up to the installer...the wireway was very often sized either by the plans or by the person in the office that purchases the materials for the job.

 

[jap]

There is no magic about 15'....just a starting point. The damage is from where the size of the opening is too small to permit the bend to fit in when you pull it the second direction. The shorter the length being fed back in the easier it is to prevent damage even where the opening is undersized.

As far a the electrician and the use of a wireway sized to be used as a pull box, that is not typically up to the installer...the wireway was very often sized either by the plans or by the person in the office that purchases the materials for the job.

You're the man Don, not trying to argue.

But most of the sizing of the pull boxes, and, installation of conductors without damaging them is simply common sense stuff that is generally learned during apprenticeship.

On another note, I've never let an office person size a junction box form me on one of my jobs.

Not until they'd like to trade their comfy office chair for my wire pulls that is.

Jap>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

You're the man Don, not trying to argue.

But most of the sizing of the pull boxes, and, installation of conductors without damaging them is simply common sense stuff that is generally learned during apprenticeship.

On another note, I've never let an office person size a junction box form me on one of my jobs.

Not until they'd like to trade their comfy office chair for my wire pulls that is.

Jap>

On many jobs, all of the material is bought by the office and you work with what they give you. That was not the case with the company I worked for, but I know it is with lots of companies, and even more so when the job is a hard money bid job.

When a field guy goes into the office to bid, most times there are way fewer winning bids as the field guy knows what it will really take to build the job

 

[jap]

On many jobs, all of the material is bought by the office and you work with what they give you. That was not the case with the company I worked for, but I know it is with lots of companies, and even more so when the job is a hard money bid job.

When a field guy goes into the office to bid, most times there are way fewer winning bids as the field guy knows what it will really take to build the job

See,,, we absolutely agree on some things.

Thanks Don.

JAP>

 

[jaggedben]

I agree with jap that the length of the raceway on either side of the wireway is irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant (besides degrees of bends in the conduits) is whether the two knockouts on opposite sides of the wireway are aligned straight enough to pull the wire without handling it inside the wire way. If I were the AHJ I'd probably give you about 1/16" of offset per 3" of wireway. i.e you get to off by about an 8th in a 6" wireway. Just a judgment call...

(Btw the other thing that makes no sense about the requirement in 314 is basing it strictly on the size of the conduit instead of the conductors. Numerous times I've put, say, a 2" nipple between a panel and a gutter and pulled a number of circuits through it, only one of which was #4 or larger. I should not have to apply 8x2" to anything for that, I should get to apply, say, 8x1" if the conductors are #4. And in no circumstance should I be penalized for using a bigger conduit than fill requirements call for.)

 

[jap]

I agree with jap that the length of the raceway on either side of the wireway is irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant (besides degrees of bends in the conduits) is whether the two knockouts on opposite sides of the wireway are aligned straight enough to pull the wire without handling it inside the wire way.

Exactly, and, If you get the wrong ding dongs pulling in the wire where the conduits don't align, that's when the conductors come out looking like those 14" plastic zip tie hair removal things you stick down the drain.

Someone knows what I'm talking about and will surely post of pic of it as on example of what the insulation on your wire will look like.

JAP>

 

[hillbilly1]

We avoid that issue by running the conduit straight through the wireway, no connection points.