Patient Room Voltages
- Thread starter dhuffman
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Re: Patient Room Voltages
I disagree. 210.6 uses the phrase "dwelling units and guest rooms of hotels, motels, and similar occupancies,..." The handbook goes on to explain the term refers to sleeping rooms in dormitories, fraternities, sororities, nursing homes, and other such facilities. Since a patient room has a bed, it can be expected that patients will be sleeping in the room. Therefore, IMO 210.6 would apply.
Steve
I disagree. 210.6 uses the phrase "dwelling units and guest rooms of hotels, motels, and similar occupancies,..." The handbook goes on to explain the term refers to sleeping rooms in dormitories, fraternities, sororities, nursing homes, and other such facilities. Since a patient room has a bed, it can be expected that patients will be sleeping in the room. Therefore, IMO 210.6 would apply.
Steve
Re: Patient Room Voltages
Like I said in my orginal post it is my opionion that it is allowed. As stated in other posts the hand book is the autors opionon and not binding as code. I have worked in several health care facilities and most of them had 277 volt lighting in fixtures over the bed in the ceiling. They also had 120 volt lighting in and overbed fixture. Hillrom manufacturing makes a lot of beds and lighting fixtures for hospitals, they have a 277 volt over bed light option. i have installed them. Now I am not saying that just because they make it or I have installed them this is correct just MO
Like I said in my orginal post it is my opionion that it is allowed. As stated in other posts the hand book is the autors opionon and not binding as code. I have worked in several health care facilities and most of them had 277 volt lighting in fixtures over the bed in the ceiling. They also had 120 volt lighting in and overbed fixture. Hillrom manufacturing makes a lot of beds and lighting fixtures for hospitals, they have a 277 volt over bed light option. i have installed them. Now I am not saying that just because they make it or I have installed them this is correct just MO
Re: Patient Room Voltages
I'm still skeptical, but I will admit I'm suprised Hillrom makes a 277V over the bed model.
That's the first I've heard about the handbook being an opinion and not binding. After all, it is published by NFPA. It may only be an opinion, but I wouldn't want to try and convince the AHJ of that.
Steve
I'm still skeptical, but I will admit I'm suprised Hillrom makes a 277V over the bed model.
That's the first I've heard about the handbook being an opinion and not binding. After all, it is published by NFPA. It may only be an opinion, but I wouldn't want to try and convince the AHJ of that.
Steve
Re: Patient Room Voltages
Steve
If you look in your handbook, just a couple of pages in side the cover, you will see 2 disclaimers. One for liability and 1 for interpatations. Both of which state this book is the authours opinion. Both also state that they are not part of the code. I also would not want to agrue with an AHJ over what is written in the hand book. I also am only giving my interpatation and with that and $1 you might get a cup of coffee
Steve
If you look in your handbook, just a couple of pages in side the cover, you will see 2 disclaimers. One for liability and 1 for interpatations. Both of which state this book is the authours opinion. Both also state that they are not part of the code. I also would not want to agrue with an AHJ over what is written in the hand book. I also am only giving my interpatation and with that and $1 you might get a cup of coffee
G
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Re: Patient Room Voltages
Steve,
I've posted some rants about the NEC Handbook not being binding.
I personally feel if the Handbook is bundled, published, and distributed by the NFPA that it should be as binding as the NEC itself.
The spin on that position is that the NEC is a consensus document requiring at least 320 CMP volunteers, and ten code making panels (CMP's) plus a Correlating Committee. The thought is that the Handbook would require more wo/manpower to output than the NEC. The Handbook is compiled by five authors.
The NFPA NEC Handbook is treated like any one of the other bazillion 3rd party after-market handbooks. It cannot be relied on and the NFPA assumes no liability for its content or interpretations. You may notice that the Handbook uses everyday terms that are not even used in the NEC (i.e.- subpanel).
Off topic: I believe the NEC would benefit greatly by adding a lot more periods. The NEC is a compilation of run-on sentences. In my opinion if each two or three part sentence was broken down into two or three complete sentences just by adding periods the clarity of the NEC would increase 1000-fold. The other option would be to add more verbiage to each run-on sentence to more clearly identify who possesses certain parts of a sentence. I think the "add periods" idea would keep things tight without adding redundant verbosity.
I believe it would be a win/win/win situation to make the NEC Handbook part of the legal document of the NEC. It would add value to the NEC & to the Handbook. Right now it's just well thought out shooting from the lip and educated conjecture. The Handbook, in my opinion, should be the official interpretation of the NEC.
Sorry to stray off topic. Please don't shoot the messenger. I'm standing up for all of us anal-retentive card carrying members of DENSA
Steve,
I've posted some rants about the NEC Handbook not being binding.
I personally feel if the Handbook is bundled, published, and distributed by the NFPA that it should be as binding as the NEC itself.
The spin on that position is that the NEC is a consensus document requiring at least 320 CMP volunteers, and ten code making panels (CMP's) plus a Correlating Committee. The thought is that the Handbook would require more wo/manpower to output than the NEC. The Handbook is compiled by five authors.
The NFPA NEC Handbook is treated like any one of the other bazillion 3rd party after-market handbooks. It cannot be relied on and the NFPA assumes no liability for its content or interpretations. You may notice that the Handbook uses everyday terms that are not even used in the NEC (i.e.- subpanel).
Off topic: I believe the NEC would benefit greatly by adding a lot more periods. The NEC is a compilation of run-on sentences. In my opinion if each two or three part sentence was broken down into two or three complete sentences just by adding periods the clarity of the NEC would increase 1000-fold. The other option would be to add more verbiage to each run-on sentence to more clearly identify who possesses certain parts of a sentence. I think the "add periods" idea would keep things tight without adding redundant verbosity.
I believe it would be a win/win/win situation to make the NEC Handbook part of the legal document of the NEC. It would add value to the NEC & to the Handbook. Right now it's just well thought out shooting from the lip and educated conjecture. The Handbook, in my opinion, should be the official interpretation of the NEC.
Sorry to stray off topic. Please don't shoot the messenger. I'm standing up for all of us anal-retentive card carrying members of DENSA
Re: Patient Room Voltages
Thanks guys, but whether or not you feel the handbook notes are binding or not, this is what I'm getting. The AHJ agrees that it does not apply, the state inspector as well, and the director of engineering of Lightolier who, by the way, must manufacture the light in compliance with the NEC. The issue is whether a hospital patient room is "similar" to a motel room or frat house. It is not. These lights are currently running on the third floor of our facility at 277 volts. The engineer on an expansion project here called for 120v lights in the new rooms. It looks like he is wrong.
Thanks guys, but whether or not you feel the handbook notes are binding or not, this is what I'm getting. The AHJ agrees that it does not apply, the state inspector as well, and the director of engineering of Lightolier who, by the way, must manufacture the light in compliance with the NEC. The issue is whether a hospital patient room is "similar" to a motel room or frat house. It is not. These lights are currently running on the third floor of our facility at 277 volts. The engineer on an expansion project here called for 120v lights in the new rooms. It looks like he is wrong.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
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- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Patient Room Voltages
What is binding is federal, state, and local law. The book published by the NEC becomes a law (and therefore binding) only when one or more jurisdictions enact it into their laws. The NFPA, as an organization, has no authority to create anything that is ?binding.?
I have no difficulty in treating the NEC Handbook as an interpretation of the NEC by the authors of the Handbook. I also have no difficulty in interpreting the NEC in a manner that differs from the interpretation of the Handbook?s authors. I would have difficulty (though it hasn?t happened to me yet) if an Inspector tried to enforce a statement that appears in the Handbook, but not in the NEC itself. I was tempted once to use a Handbook statement to support my position, in a disagreement with an Inspector, but I resisted that temptation.
(Added note: Now if any jurisdiction should choose to enact the Handbook into their laws, there would be a different story to tell.)
[ October 31, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
Please do keep in mind that the NEC itself (I mean the book, as published and distributed by the NFPA) is NOT BINDING! Never has been; never will be!
What is binding is federal, state, and local law. The book published by the NEC becomes a law (and therefore binding) only when one or more jurisdictions enact it into their laws. The NFPA, as an organization, has no authority to create anything that is ?binding.?
I have no difficulty in treating the NEC Handbook as an interpretation of the NEC by the authors of the Handbook. I also have no difficulty in interpreting the NEC in a manner that differs from the interpretation of the Handbook?s authors. I would have difficulty (though it hasn?t happened to me yet) if an Inspector tried to enforce a statement that appears in the Handbook, but not in the NEC itself. I was tempted once to use a Handbook statement to support my position, in a disagreement with an Inspector, but I resisted that temptation.
(Added note: Now if any jurisdiction should choose to enact the Handbook into their laws, there would be a different story to tell.)
[ October 31, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
Re: Patient Room Voltages
That is an interesting post Charlie, especially the possibility of enacting the handbook into law. But, now that I think about it for a minute, the best thing about the handbook it the non-legal language. Maybe that makes it a less than ideal legal document.
Originally posted by dhuffman:
Steve
[ October 31, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: steve66 ]
That is an interesting post Charlie, especially the possibility of enacting the handbook into law. But, now that I think about it for a minute, the best thing about the handbook it the non-legal language. Maybe that makes it a less than ideal legal document.
Originally posted by dhuffman:
What would be wrong with calling out 120V lights even if 277V is allowed? I seem to be in the minority with my opinion here, but I still won't be specifying any 277V lighting in patient rooms.
Steve
[ October 31, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: steve66 ]
G
Guest
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Re: Patient Room Voltages
Sorry Charlie,
I should have worded my post more carefully. Good catch. The NEC is nothing. It's just a book unless & until it's adopted by an AHJ.
The point I wanted to get across is that putting the Handbook on par with the NEC would be a win/win/win. They would be presented to the AHJ as bundle to be adopted as a package deal.
Sorry Charlie,
I should have worded my post more carefully. Good catch. The NEC is nothing. It's just a book unless & until it's adopted by an AHJ.
The point I wanted to get across is that putting the Handbook on par with the NEC would be a win/win/win. They would be presented to the AHJ as bundle to be adopted as a package deal.
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: Patient Room Voltages
A code cycle would probably take 10 years if all the CMP's had to agree on everything in the handbook as well as the official NEC. Getting a few people to coordinate and hit a schedule is tractable, getting a few hundred is kinda like trying to herd cockroaches.
Re: Patient Room Voltages
I like the NEC Handbook for the illustrations it has. Sometimes when I am stumped by reading the NEC, the handbook helps me by illustrating what it means. Binding or not, I like a picture sometimes. One thing though, until I moved to South Dakota, no other state I have taken a test in will allow the NEC Handbook to be used in the test. South Dakota will allow it and the NEC together or either.
I like the NEC Handbook for the illustrations it has. Sometimes when I am stumped by reading the NEC, the handbook helps me by illustrating what it means. Binding or not, I like a picture sometimes. One thing though, until I moved to South Dakota, no other state I have taken a test in will allow the NEC Handbook to be used in the test. South Dakota will allow it and the NEC together or either.
Re: Patient Room Voltages
What is wrong with the new project having 120v bed lights?
When the contract was awarded, the EC new what he had to supply so what is the issue?
It would make it easier to wire to switched bed receptacle, or in the least eliminate a relay. (another maintenance item)
Roger
What is wrong with the new project having 120v bed lights?
When the contract was awarded, the EC new what he had to supply so what is the issue?
It would make it easier to wire to switched bed receptacle, or in the least eliminate a relay. (another maintenance item)
Roger
Re: Patient Room Voltages
The EC did not purchase the lights, the owner (we) did. We want them at 277 volts because we already stock ballasts for replacement for this same light in other areas of the hospital. Not to mention the difference in energy used (cost) over a period of many years. We are not willing to pay more in utilities because of an engineer's reading of the code.
The EC did not purchase the lights, the owner (we) did. We want them at 277 volts because we already stock ballasts for replacement for this same light in other areas of the hospital. Not to mention the difference in energy used (cost) over a period of many years. We are not willing to pay more in utilities because of an engineer's reading of the code.
Re: Patient Room Voltages
One thing I have learned from this forum is that code issues are seldom as "cut and dry" as they seem. There are often two ways to interpert a code. (Example: Additional small appliance branch circuits in kitchens. Some think they have to be 20 A circuits, some think 15 A is OK, and they both have valid arguments). The engineer should have made it clear that it is his opinion that the lights have to be 120V.
One other point, I believe the AHJ, the state inspector, and the Lightolier engineer were also stating their opinions . They may be the only opinions that carry any weight at your facility since they have the ultimate say what gets approved and what gets flagged. However, they are still opinions. They are subject to appeal and can be reversed by their bosses, or by the courts, by official opinions of the NEC, etc.
Steve
One thing I have learned from this forum is that code issues are seldom as "cut and dry" as they seem. There are often two ways to interpert a code. (Example: Additional small appliance branch circuits in kitchens. Some think they have to be 20 A circuits, some think 15 A is OK, and they both have valid arguments). The engineer should have made it clear that it is his opinion that the lights have to be 120V.
One other point, I believe the AHJ, the state inspector, and the Lightolier engineer were also stating their opinions . They may be the only opinions that carry any weight at your facility since they have the ultimate say what gets approved and what gets flagged. However, they are still opinions. They are subject to appeal and can be reversed by their bosses, or by the courts, by official opinions of the NEC, etc.
Steve
- Location
- Illinois
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- retired electrician
Re: Patient Room Voltages
dhuffman,
Don
dhuffman,
I think that the increase in energy use would be so small that you couldn't measure it.
Don
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