Patio room installation on mobile home

[JustWork]

Hello to you all. We have an existing mobile home in an existing development no wheels on it the home has an aluminum metal skirt vented periodically around its perimeter to close the under carriage. They have constructed a wood deck and installed a patio room with aluminum construction on top of the deck which is attached to the to the mobile home which in this case considered a dwelling.? The unit is about 25 years old with a panel is maxed out. Permits have been applied for and we are abiding by all codes as with any other installation. My installation consists of a 14/2 romex snake down the wall from the panel then we took half-inch PVC and stuck it above the cross members of the subframe of the mobilehome to the attachment point of where the deck in the mobile home meet then we sleeve the 14/2 romex through it the only part of the romex that's exposed is 8 inches from the PVC to the bottom where it enters the floor under panel. The other end enters through the ledger board attached to mobile home then stapled to the first outlet location. Because this is an aluminum room everything is surface mounted with PVC taymac boxes secured with four number 8 x 0.625 self drilling sheet-metal screws to the aluminum walls. From the floor to the box which is located 18 inches up from the floor has a piece of half-inch PVC which runs from the bottom of the box to just below the underside of the sub flooring or in this case the decking. The wiring is then looped from outlet to outlet entering the PVC sleeve to each outlet which are also strapped to the aluminum walls. The home run is not arc fault protected nor GFI protected GFI protection starts at the first outlet then protects the entire room.
My questions are as follows:

1)According to article 210.12 all dwelling units are required to have arc fault protection which we all know, but since this is a patio room and not considered a sunroom does a patio room fall under the codes interpretation of similar rooms or areas? I'm thinking yes

2) Would the underside of the mobile home be considered damp locations if it is totally enclosed around its perimeter and vented? (same conditions as crawlspace) I thinking no.

3) I feel that the installation was nothing out of the ordinary, ok I didn't install connectors on the end of the conduit to clamp the wire as required.

The installation did not pass inspection under the following violation notes.

210.12 arc fault required (ok got me GFCI has been accepted usually and I just stuck with it) Now I have to wire into the panel with MC to a metal box just under the panel install a feed thru arc fault device.

334.12 a/b5 (not sure what the 5 is maybe 4 which is wet or damp locations?)

550.15 h/a (not sure what the a is maybe should have been 1?)

Comments are "feeder must in pipe under trailer entire length" (not sure what that's about. home run maybe? which is a branch circuit?)


Ok guys let me know what you think. I have been under many trailers and seen many shit installations but based upon this last install if feel that I was just tossed in that pile.

 

[JustWork]

Wow no replys from anyone on this. Thats not good.

Wow no replys from anyone on this. Thats not good.

130 views and not one input I was hoping for something to help me out here.

Hello to you all. We have an existing mobile home in an existing development no wheels on it the home has an aluminum metal skirt vented periodically around its perimeter to close the under carriage. They have constructed a wood deck and installed a patio room with aluminum construction on top of the deck which is attached to the to the mobile home which in this case considered a dwelling.? The unit is about 25 years old with a panel is maxed out. Permits have been applied for and we are abiding by all codes as with any other installation. My installation consists of a 14/2 romex snake down the wall from the panel then we took half-inch PVC and stuck it above the cross members of the subframe of the mobilehome to the attachment point of where the deck in the mobile home meet then we sleeve the 14/2 romex through it the only part of the romex that's exposed is 8 inches from the PVC to the bottom where it enters the floor under panel. The other end enters through the ledger board attached to mobile home then stapled to the first outlet location. Because this is an aluminum room everything is surface mounted with PVC taymac boxes secured with four number 8 x 0.625 self drilling sheet-metal screws to the aluminum walls. From the floor to the box which is located 18 inches up from the floor has a piece of half-inch PVC which runs from the bottom of the box to just below the underside of the sub flooring or in this case the decking. The wiring is then looped from outlet to outlet entering the PVC sleeve to each outlet which are also strapped to the aluminum walls. The home run is not arc fault protected nor GFI protected GFI protection starts at the first outlet then protects the entire room.
My questions are as follows:

1)According to article 210.12 all dwelling units are required to have arc fault protection which we all know, but since this is a patio room and not considered a sunroom does a patio room fall under the codes interpretation of similar rooms or areas? I'm thinking yes

2) Would the underside of the mobile home be considered damp locations if it is totally enclosed around its perimeter and vented? (same conditions as crawlspace) I thinking no.

3) I feel that the installation was nothing out of the ordinary, ok I didn't install connectors on the end of the conduit to clamp the wire as required.

The installation did not pass inspection under the following violation notes.

210.12 arc fault required (ok got me GFCI has been accepted usually and I just stuck with it) Now I have to wire into the panel with MC to a metal box just under the panel install a feed thru arc fault device.

334.12 a/b5 (not sure what the 5 is maybe 4 which is wet or damp locations?)

550.15 h/a (not sure what the a is maybe should have been 1?)

Comments are "feeder must in pipe under trailer entire length" (not sure what that's about. home run maybe? which is a branch circuit?)


Ok guys let me know what you think. I have been under many trailers and seen many shit installations but based upon this last install if feel that I was just tossed in that pile.

 

[JDBrown]

Not sure how much help I'll be, since I'm a desk jockey (engineer), not out in the field. That said, here's my take:

1)According to article 210.12 all dwelling units are required to have arc fault protection which we all know, but since this is a patio room and not considered a sunroom does a patio room fall under the codes interpretation of similar rooms or areas? I'm thinking yes

I agree. In my mind, sunroom = enclosed porch = enclosed patio. There are some subtle differences, of course, but I don't think there's any question that they are "similar areas." If the patio is not enclosed, then the situation is totally different, and AFCI is not required.

2) Would the underside of the mobile home be considered damp locations if it is totally enclosed around its perimeter and vented? (same conditions as crawlspace) I thinking no.

I can definitely see calling that a damp location, especially, if it's just dirt underneath. After a nice big rainstorm, it will be plenty damp under there. Of course, this is one of those situations where our opinion doesn't matter. Only the Inspector's opinion matters, and if he says it's damp, it's damp.

3) I feel that the installation was nothing out of the ordinary, ok I didn't install connectors on the end of the conduit to clamp the wire as required.

Better install the connectors, then.

The installation did not pass inspection under the following violation notes.

210.12 arc fault required (ok got me GFCI has been accepted usually and I just stuck with it) Now I have to wire into the panel with MC to a metal box just under the panel install a feed thru arc fault device.

Sounds okay.

334.12 a/b5 (not sure what the 5 is maybe 4 which is wet or damp locations?)

I agree, he probably meant #4.

550.15 h/a (not sure what the a is maybe should have been 1?)

Comments are "feeder must in pipe under trailer entire length" (not sure what that's about. home run maybe? which is a branch circuit?)

He's saying your conduit needs to run the entire length under the trailer; it can't just be PVC sleeves at the ends with exposed wiring under the trailer. Also, 550.15(H)(1) says that, in order to use PVC, your conduit must be "closely routed against frames and equipment enclosures."

Hopefully, this was helpful. Input from somebody who has actually wired up a job like this would probably be more helpful.

 

[JustWork]

Desk jockey or not thank you for your time to reply. In the field we usually say it all looks good on paper from their seat

Quote Originally Posted by JustWork View Post

550.15 h/a (not sure what the a is maybe should have been 1?)

Comments are "feeder must in pipe under trailer entire length" (not sure what that's about. home run maybe? which is a branch circuit?)

He's saying your conduit needs to run the entire length under the trailer; it can't just be PVC sleeves at the ends with exposed wiring under the trailer. Also, 550.15(H)(1) says that, in order to use PVC, your conduit must be "closely routed against frames and equipment enclosures."

550.15 (H) Under Chassis wiring (Exposed to Weather)

When I read this (exposed to weather) I would believe that it would be if there was no skirt around the trailer and the wind, rain, snow, sun, and etc can come in contact with it?? Damp location would not be considered exposed to weather?

I have talked to other EC's and they have wired basically the same way and some used uf when the location of trailer parks were in low lying areas which this is not the case at this site.


Just an off the wall question, if I wire an open covered porch on a dwelling with romex to feed the recessed lights or the paddle fans would this be a damp location, exposed to the weather or both?

If you put a vented soffit on it would that change the conditions?

Ok i'm done venting :rant: that I didn't meet the requirement of the code on such a simple installation:ashamed: base on interpretation But I put this in the book of learning and it will not happen again:happyno: For all The inspectors out there you have a job to do which can be very difficult and I am in no way putting any of you down, I commend you all for doing the job do it safe and keep us safe.

JD Brown
Thanks again

 

[mgookin]

Most (many?) inspectors have "phone hours" where you can call during morning or afternoon and ask for clarification on the rejection notice.

 

[JDBrown]

Just an off the wall question, if I wire an open covered porch on a dwelling with romex to feed the recessed lights or the paddle fans would this be a damp location, exposed to the weather or both?

I would call an open covered porch a damp location, but not exposed to weather. If the wiring is properly concealed inside the walls/ceiling, I wouldn't even call it damp. But I've heard others say that anything that penetrates the moisture barrier in the wall has to be rated for damp locations (even if it's just wiring going to a flush exterior receptacle). That seems a bit extreme to me, but most of these guys have been around a lot longer than I have. Plus, I'm not the Inspector.

 

[GoldDigger]

But I've heard others say that anything that penetrates the moisture barrier in the wall has to be rated for damp locations (even if it's just wiring going to a flush exterior receptacle).

Others say it because the NEC says it. Wire in conduit outdoors is a damp location. Under some conditions it can even be a wet location.
The only thing that would have a significant effect would be if the porch or crawl space were heated rather than just ventilated.

Definitions (100):

Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.

300.7(A):

(A) Sealing. Where portions of a raceway or sleeve are known to be subjected to different temperatures, and where condensation is known to be a problem, as in cold storage areas of buildings or where passing from the interior to the exterior of a building, the raceway or sleeve shall be filled with an approved material to prevent the circulation of warm air to a colder section of the raceway or sleeve. An explosion proof seal shall not be required for this purpose.

300.9:

300.9 Raceways in Wet Locations Abovegrade. Where raceways are installed in wet locations above grade, the interior of these raceways shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables installed in raceways in wet locations abovegrade shall comply with (C).

Also look at 550.15.

 

[JDBrown]

Others say it because the NEC says it.

Can you provide a Code reference for that? I'm not trying to "be a snot" (as my mother would say ), but if it's true that the wiring to a flush-mounted box on the exterior of a house is in a damp location (and therefore can't be wired with NM), then <hyperbole> every house I've ever seen </hyperbole> is in violation.

Wire in conduit outdoors is a damp location. Under some conditions it can even be a wet location.

I agree. I was talking about wiring concealed inside JustWork's hypothetical patio roof/ceiling (think 2x6 construction with shingles on top and stucco underneath--fairly common around here). I don't see how that location would be any more damp than the attic of the house.

 

[GoldDigger]

Can you provide a Code reference for that? I'm not trying to "be a snot" (as my mother would say ), but if it's true that the wiring to a flush-mounted box on the exterior of a house is in a damp location (and therefore can't be wired with NM), then <hyperbole> every house I've ever seen </hyperbole> is in violation.

(All references are to 2011)

Well, 300.7(A) does not call the stub going through the wall or the outside box a damp location, but it does indicate that a vapor seal is mandatory, and I do not see that installed very often either. Except maybe where it is done for energy efficiency reasons rather than NEC reasons.
And once you do install a seal, I would see a strong argument that the portion on the outside of the seal is effectively outside the house.

Also look at the Article 100 definition of "Location, wet" and see that anyplace exposed to the weather is wet. Couple that with 300.9 and you have the result that anything inside a raceway which is exposed to weather is considered to be in a wet location also. Which rules out NM.

I agree that it may be a bit of a stretch, but a stretch that at least some inspectors are willing to make.
Against that, you can argue that the outer face of a flush mounted box is exposed to the weather, but that the box itself is not part of raceway, therefore 300.9 does not apply.