Permanant Access Required?

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sfav8r

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Were feeding power to 3 1.5 Ton units on a flat roof. We were thinking instead of having 3 separate disconnects, we would just put a panel on the roof and use the breakers as disconnects since they would be close to the units. If we placed a panel there ,would there need to be a permanent ladder/stair access to the roof even if the panel is only used to disconnect the HVAC units?

Thanks
 
I think this is the same argument one can make for a GFCI up on a roof. The NEC requires them to be readily accessible as they do overcurrent devices. 240.24

The difference is that 240.24 gives us an out with 240.24(A)(4)
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I think this is the same argument one can make for a GFCI up on a roof. The NEC requires them to be readily accessible as they do overcurrent devices. 240.24

The difference is that 240.24 gives us an out with 240.24(A)(4)
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Dennis,

1) Thanks for the code reference.
2) I was thinking that even if the only breakers in the panel were for the HVAC units, the inspector could argue that it was still a sub panel so 240.24 would apply.
3) If we add a service plug on that panel then I think we lose the 240.24(A)(4) exemption.

What do you think?
 
I don't believe any panel needs to be any more accessible than the area it serves.

"Accessible" is a realtive term. Accessible to whom, and for what purpose? I submit that the panel in a home's basement isn't very accessible to the folks on the second floor, or out in the garage.

It's a shining example of common sense to have a rooftop location for the panel serving rooftop equipment- including service receptacles. Why make the guy go up and down the ladder a dozen times in the course of maintenance?

That panel has to be fed from somewhere. IMO, that "somewhere" also has to be accessible.

For me, the principle is 'accessible to the guy who's going to want to use it.' If that means upside-down, hanging from the ceiling ... so be it.

There's another element here: one of identification. A panel right next to the equipment it serves makes it pretty easy for me to find the right switch in a hurry. If I have to climb down from the roof, enter the business, and poke around in several panels to find the 'right' one, its a poor design.
 
renosteinke said:
I don't believe any panel needs to be any more accessible than the area it serves.

"Accessible" is a realtive term. Accessible to whom, and for what purpose? I submit that the panel in a home's basement isn't very accessible to the folks on the second floor, or out in the garage.

It's a shining example of common sense to have a rooftop location for the panel serving rooftop equipment- including service receptacles. Why make the guy go up and down the ladder a dozen times in the course of maintenance?

That panel has to be fed from somewhere. IMO, that "somewhere" also has to be accessible.

For me, the principle is 'accessible to the guy who's going to want to use it.' If that means upside-down, hanging from the ceiling ... so be it.

There's another element here: one of identification. A panel right next to the equipment it serves makes it pretty easy for me to find the right switch in a hurry. If I have to climb down from the roof, enter the business, and poke around in several panels to find the 'right' one, its a poor design.
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I agree with everything yes said, however I was referring to the actual NEC definition:

"Accessible, Readily - Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth."

You could certainly argue that "those to who ready access is requisite" would be the HVAC guy (at least I would argue that) my concern is that the electrical inspectors definition would be ANYBODY who needs to access the panel and that might just be the inspector who doesn't want to fetch a ladder ;-)
 
I always tell you guys that you need to know the other codes also.

The mechanical code says that if the roof is over 15 feet high and there is equipment on the roof then a fixed means of access is required. So it really doesn't matter if you have a panel up there or not, there's going to be a ladder there any way.
 
cowboyjwc said:
I always tell you guys that you need to know the other codes also.

The mechanical code says that if the roof is over 15 feet high and there is equipment on the roof then a fixed means of access is required. So it really doesn't matter if you have a panel up there or not, there's going to be a ladder there any way.
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A couple of thoughts on this:
1) The inspector said that the "permanent access" requirement for HVAC was not an issue due to the fact that they were not gas appliances. I don't see what difference that makes, but that's what he said.
2) While the roof is more that 15' high in the front, the rear 1/2 of the bldg. is only one story and there is a stairway to the roof in that section. Therefore you can access the HVAC units with an 8' ladder from the 1st floor roof to the top floor roof. Don't know if that matters.
3) There is currently a fire escape ladder that would allow access to the roof. You must crawl out a large window to get to it, but it is a permanent ladder and I believe it meets the other requirements of minimum toe space, rung spacing, etc.
 
sfav8r said:
....the electrical inspectors definition would be ANYBODY who needs to access the panel and that might just be the inspector who doesn't want to fetch a ladder...
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The electrical panel in my basement is not readily accessible to ANYBODY, it is especially not accessible to the guy servicing my outdoor HVAC unit.
 
sfav8r said:
A couple of thoughts on this:
1) The inspector said that the "permanent access" requirement for HVAC was not an issue due to the fact that they were not gas appliances. I don't see what difference that makes, but that's what he said.
2) While the roof is more that 15' high in the front, the rear 1/2 of the bldg. is only one story and there is a stairway to the roof in that section. Therefore you can access the HVAC units with an 8' ladder from the 1st floor roof to the top floor roof. Don't know if that matters.
3) There is currently a fire escape ladder that would allow access to the roof. You must crawl out a large window to get to it, but it is a permanent ladder and I believe it meets the other requirements of minimum toe space, rung spacing, etc.
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Well then it sounds like it's covered to me. Now I don't know why the couldn't have put a "ships ladder" over the wall to the second story, maybe that's his issue.
 
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