Permit me to ask...

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frizbeedog

frizbeedog

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Oregon
Out estimating today. Last appointment of the day. Home remodel.

Customer starts out by telling me that he'd been a builder for thirty years and was still at it, only this time it's his own home.

So he starts showing me where he wants this and that and and the switching and he's going fast so I'm trying to keep up. I notice the existing can lights in the batroom as he's telling me where to add others. I remark about the can light above the shower and how it had the wrong trim and that we would replace it because it did not meet code. He says don't worry about that I'm not going to get the work inspected. He didn't want inspectors nosing around......long pause.....

Then I say, "we always pull a permit for this type of work."

"Oh, you do, huh?"

I know this job ain't happening. "Yes we do I said." and, "I don't think were what you're looking for."

We said thanks a bunch and our so longs too each other and I left.

So I'm off, driving down the road and thinking, that was a waste of time. Don't waste my time man. Who does he think we are? Rinky Dink, Inc.?

Dude who told you about us? They were wrong.
 
When he was a "builder" he didn't want inspectors nosing around then either - put money on it!

But there are a number of people who think that avoiding inspections saves them money and hassle - right up until the day they get nailed and have open every wall, and re-do things. I've met many in that situation after the fact doing "Correction" work.

And at what risk is he for avoiding the inspection - quite a bit... At what risk are you?

Locally in my area it would mean a 10x's permit fee plus fine - along with retro-active inspection of everything with a microscope.

Just say good riddens to him - and I think you have. And who knows - you might even find out down the line that it was a sting operation that you passed with flying colors?!?

One would think that after 30 years??? That he would have a list of EC's that put up with him and his crap? Answer that one for yourself....
 
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I thought I had a solution to this type of thing one time. I took a couple of these jobs anyhow, where the expressed desire was to have no permits. I summarily pulled a permit anyhow for my work, and did the work. On all three occasions, I either had to sword fight for my money or didn't get paid. It seems that parting ways is the thing to do.
 
All I can say is, "Run, Forrest! Run!"

I've been asked to do work without a permit. I flat-out tell them that if a permit is required, one will be acquired.
 
e57 said:
But there are a number of people who think that avoiding inspections saves them money and hassle - right up until the day they get nailed and have open every wall, and re-do things. I've met many in that situation after the fact doing "Correction" work.

And who knows - you might even find out down the line that it was a sting operation that you passed with flying colors?!?
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The first appointment of the day was to look at a job to correct work done without a permit. Corrections written up by the county inpector. Customer trying to sell the house.

The customer was a no show, and could not be reached. Left message and business card and moved on. So you could say the day started off good. :rolleyes:

As for the sting, it has never crossed my mind that such a thing would happen. Please, do tell. What do you know of these things?
 
Around here, entire homes get gutted and rebuilt w/o permits. Just about every deck and above ground swimming pool goes in w/o permits. When stores get renovated, paper goes up on the windows and when it comes down, it's all done and not a permit was pulled. Once a building has a c of o, nobody wants to invite the authorities in to adjust tax assessments.
 
For full disclosure: I'm on a job-list for "Enforcement II" for the CSLB :grin: - No application yet - just waiting for an opening in my area to apply to well - 'open'.... (Over the last year the openings have been in places too far for me to commute to...) Personally, I think it would be a job I would enjoy doing - kind of like an Inspector or Cop for contracting practices.... :rolleyes:

But - a while back a guy I know, showed up to a job to give an estimate. And a simular thing happened... He's there and a guy is there asking for prices on a bunch of work, and doesnt want permits, wants to do a handshake deal, has all the bells and whistles of a shady job. My buddy says "no dice" (Basically the same thing you did) and walks off.... An other guy who I met while talking about this at the supply house tells me the address of where he got the same shpeal, attractive job - but "real shady" - I call my buddy - same place, same day. Few days later I meet another guy warning anyone who'll listen about the same place - that he got busted for improper contracting practices, failure to have his Lic# on his card and a number of other dumb things he did.... He even posted a flyer in the parking lot - "Sting Operation at (Blah, blah, blah)" By which time it was probably over with anyway.... But talking to guys here and there - apparently a number of people got warnings from the CSLB about contracting and advertizing practices etc. Haven't met any who tell of fines or revocation of their license - but it does happen... Mostly wrist slapping for minor violations etc. is all I have heard from people. Since I talked to 4 guys who actually went to the place - mostly new licenses - I think the called half the phone book in there over a few days.

The CSLB has ~50% of each of their newsletter devoted to advertizing who and for what they have busted people on. Including bragging about their "Sting Operations", and requesting locations to do them in. Even recently added a "Most Wanted" list.
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
When stores get renovated, paper goes up on the windows and when it comes down, it's all done and not a permit was pulled. Once a building has a c of o, nobody wants to invite the authorities in to adjust tax assessments.
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I'm not sure what type of projects that you work on but around here most of the property owners will insist on a permit. If you do a remodel at a mall it needs to be cleared with mall management. They not only want a permit but proof of insurance & license. When the job is complete they demand lien waivers from all contractors. All information is then kept on file just in case there are future problems. The last inspection is normally by the Fire Marshal, this is where you can get in real trouble ( operating a business that did not pass fire inspection ).

Permits are not voluntary, they are required by law. :D
 
frizbeedog said:
He says don't worry about that I'm not going to get the work inspected. He didn't want inspectors nosing around......long pause.....
So I'm off, driving down the road and thinking, that was a waste of time. Don't waste my time man. Who does he think we are? Rinky Dink, Inc.?
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It's never to late to teach an old dog new tricks. A call to the building department should do it. If he has a dumpster outside then just call code enforcement. Rat that sucker out. ;)
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Around here, entire homes get gutted and rebuilt w/o permits. Just about every deck and above ground swimming pool goes in w/o permits. When stores get renovated, paper goes up on the windows and when it comes down, it's all done and not a permit was pulled. Once a building has a c of o, nobody wants to invite the authorities in to adjust tax assessments.
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Thats the standard practice around here too. In fact, the tax assessor gets copies of all permits pulled and they get added to your property tax record. You can see them online.

I had occasion to talk to the previous tax assessor a few times and he was very upfront that other than the normal reassessments by computer (for general shifts in property values), the permit records were where most upward adjustments came from.

The village I live in even requires a fence permit. Its 50 cents. There is no inspection. Its just to get a record that work was done so your taxes can be adjusted upward.

A few years back the tax assessor's office a few townships over tried to get the underground utility locating people to release their records.

Never fool yourself. Permits are 95% about money (and control) for governments. Any residual benefit to the public at large is unintentional and secondary.
 
petersonra said:
Thats the standard practice around here too. In fact, the tax assessor gets copies of all permits pulled and they get added to your property tax record. You can see them online.

I had occasion to talk to the previous tax assessor a few times and he was very upfront that other than the normal reassessments by computer (for general shifts in property values), the permit records were where most upward adjustments came from.

The village I live in even requires a fence permit. Its 50 cents. There is no inspection. Its just to get a record that work was done so your taxes can be adjusted upward.

A few years back the tax assessor's office a few townships over tried to get the underground utility locating people to release their records.

Never fool yourself. Permits are 95% about money (and control) for governments. Any residual benefit to the public at large is unintentional and secondary.
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At 50 cents an inspection would cost the city.The permit tax angle is an interesting proposition but our county sets our property tax rate and not our city and assesments are odd years. You can protest any adjustments. Permits should be followed with inspections to have any real merit as far as public safety and compliance with zoning.
 
Rewire said:
At 50 cents an inspection would cost the city.The permit tax angle is an interesting proposition but our county sets our property tax rate and not our city and assesments are odd years. You can protest any adjustments. Permits should be followed with inspections to have any real merit as far as public safety and compliance with zoning.
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Permits, and the inspection process is there for a good reason, every city and town in the country is rated by an underwriting agency, for purposes of determining underwriting costs of insurances and risk. For example if your town has a fire department, is it paid full time, or a part time operation, are there fire hydrents in your city and are there eniough with proper pressure, does your city enforce the buildind codes? do they have an inspection department? all these things weigh in on a cities overall underwriting ratings.

The tax end will differ from city to city, county to county, and state to state, and the way the taxes are applied will also differ, our county looks at the rates every 5 years and levels the rates, for for some tax payers thet paid for an increase for construction, may find at the end of 5 years the tax was a wash.

When an insurance company, wants to quote you a price on a homowners policy, they will check your cities underwriting ratings.
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Around here, entire homes get gutted and rebuilt w/o permits.
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When I was house hunting last summer/fall (alameda county, CA), a fair number of adverts and descriptions would say things like "2nd bath without permits" or "new sunroom built with permits". I guess they real estate agents don't want to be caught on an bad disclosure. Some of the properties even had a full set of permit copies in the disclosure book. ISTR that there's something in the real estate code that you can't officially call it a 2-bath house if one of them was built w/o permits. (Just like a room can't be a bedroom w/o a closet and a window, so you end up with some -very- small closets.)

OTOH, you can buy a 1br cottage, jack it up, and build a 6br 2 floor house -around- it and that's a remodel, since you've still got all the walls of the original house.
 
satcom said:
Permits, and the inspection process is there for a good reason, every city and town in the country is rated by an underwriting agency, for purposes of determining underwriting costs of insurances and risk. For example if your town has a fire department, is it paid full time, or a part time operation, are there fire hydrents in your city and are there eniough with proper pressure, does your city enforce the buildind codes? do they have an inspection department? all these things weigh in on a cities overall underwriting ratings.

The tax end will differ from city to city, county to county, and state to state, and the way the taxes are applied will also differ, our county looks at the rates every 5 years and levels the rates, for for some tax payers thet paid for an increase for construction, may find at the end of 5 years the tax was a wash.

When an insurance company, wants to quote you a price on a homowners policy, they will check your cities underwriting ratings.
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We have a volunteer fire dept. My insurance agent told me the only thing the insurance company cared about was how close the fire hydrant was. The closest one to me is something like 20 yards too far so I pay extra. Whne I moved in 20 some years ago the differnce was a few bucks. My HO insurance is 1/3 what my brother's is in Chicago, one of the most regulated cities in the world. I have a frame house. He has an 800 SF brick condo. there may be some minor cost differences in fire insurance based on building inspection issues, but it has to be close to nil.
 
petersonra said:
We have a volunteer fire dept. My insurance agent told me the only thing the insurance company cared about was how close the fire hydrant was. The closest one to me is something like 20 yards too far so I pay extra. Whne I moved in 20 some years ago the differnce was a few bucks. My HO insurance is 1/3 what my brother's is in Chicago, one of the most regulated cities in the world. I have a frame house. He has an 800 SF brick condo. there may be some minor cost differences in fire insurance based on building inspection issues, but it has to be close to nil.
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There are many things they weigh before assigning a rating, years of insurance rating experiences, with exposure, and claims, each insurance company will differ, in how these ratings impact the price of insurance. Some cities with a volunteer fire dept, and communties with good planning, may fair better then larger cities with paid departments, and poor planning.

Bottom line, if your in a rural area, with limited fire protection, and little or no building planning, or no enforcement of codes, you can bet your rates will be higher.
 
3 million residents.

10,000 contractors.

100 inspectors.


Do the math. Lots of work is done without inspections. Some of it is good, some of it is bad.
 
Say what you will about permits and inspections. On many jobs this is the only way to be legal and make sure that you are covered. I don't know how many homeowners have asked me to check out the wiring in a basement or kitchen because they hired a contractor to do a remodeling job and he didn't get a permit and they are not sure the EC he used is for real.

For some reason the guys that never pull permits tend to cut many more corners than those that do. I think it's human nature to worry more about doing a good job if you think someone is watching over you. I can tell from experience that many GC's only hire a licensed elecrician if forced to get a permit ( normally they use Joe, he knows enough to get by).

If you get right down to it you can have a 100 flying splices in a house and it not burn down but it isn't to code. I now where there is a motel that was remodeled without permits. They have MC cable with the ends taped and stuck in plastic boxes. That's bad enough but you can't help but wonder just what else they did to save time or money. I doubt if there was an electrician on the job.
 
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