Permit or not to Permit

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mwm1752

mwm1752

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Location
Aspen, Colo
Interested about the level of electrical work done in order for your AHJ to require a permit. Where is the line drawn & which code section.

recept replacement? -- AFCI protection required 1/1/14
move single switch 10'? -- minor extension
Breaker replacement? -- equipment repair
Broken PVC raceway? -- Service work
 
mwm1752 said:
Interested about the level of electrical work done in order for your AHJ to require a permit. Where is the line drawn & which code section.

recept replacement? -- AFCI protection required 1/1/14
move single switch 10'? -- minor extension
Breaker replacement? -- equipment repair
Broken PVC raceway? -- Service work
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Since I stay in the big city, I usually look at the city's website to see if permits are required... Or call the building code dept.
 
xformer said:
Since I stay in the big city, I usually look at the city's website to see if permits are required... Or call the building code dept.
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Will you post the requirement -- I'd like to see if my questions can be answered. or can you answer them by what is stated, In fact, if anyone else has the requirements posted in the state statutes or local city regs answer the questions as you interprete your area.
 
mwm1752 said:
Will you post the requirement -- I'd like to see if my questions can be answered. or can you answer them by what is stated, In fact, if anyone else has the requirements posted in the state statutes or local city regs answer the questions as you interprete your area.
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"]http://www.dallascityhall.com/building_inspection/building_inspection_faqs.html#A1[/URL]
 
Electrical Permit Required
Any owner or authorized agent who intends to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical system the installation of which is regulated by the Kentucky Building and Electrical Codes, or to cause any such work to be done, shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required permit.

Examples that would require an electrical permit:
  • Adding a new circuit and/or wiring for appliances such as an air conditioner or sump pump.
  • Installing and/or adding receptacles or light fixtures where one did not exist before.
  • Installing and/or adding a new electrical panel and breakers.
  • Restoring power after it has been interrupted because of a hazardous condition.
Examples that would not require an electrical permit:

  • Replacing a receptacle where one already existed.
  • Replacing a faulty circuit breaker of the same size and type.
  • Replacing or changing a light fixture.
  • Installing phones or coax cable (cable TV).
Inspections Required
Construction or work for which a permit is required shall be subject to inspection by the building official and such construction or work shall remain accessible and exposed for inspection purposes until approved.
For Electrical Permits the most common inspections are Rough-in and Final. Some types of work only require a Final inspection. All appropriate inspections are required to be completed prior to issuance of Final Approval.
Things to remember about Electrical Permits

  • A homeowner may obtain a permit if he/she is performing the work on their own home. Else a licensed electrician is required for obtaining electrical permits.
  • It is the permit holders responsibility to insure the site is accessible for inspection. If the inspector cannot gain entry the applicant may be charged and additional inspection fee.
  • The penalty for starting electrical work prior to obtaining a permit is $1,000 for the first offense and $2,000 for any subsequent offences.
 
Examples that would require an electrical permit:
  • Adding a new circuit and/or wiring for appliances such as an air conditioner or sump pump.
  • Installing and/or adding receptacles or light fixtures where one did not exist before.
  • Installing and/or adding a new electrical panel and breakers.
  • Restoring power after it has been interrupted because of a hazardous condition.

Examples that would not require an electrical permit:
  • Replacing a receptacle where one already existed.
  • Replacing a faulty circuit breaker of the same size and type.
  • Replacing or changing a light fixture.
  • Installing phones or coax cable (cable TV).

  • The above seems to be pretty accurate to what I'm expected to do also.
 
1793 said:
Electrical Permit Required
Any owner or authorized agent who intends to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical system the installation of which is regulated by the Kentucky Building and Electrical Codes, or to cause any such work to be done, shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required permit.

Examples that would require an electrical permit:
  • Adding a new circuit and/or wiring for appliances such as an air conditioner or sump pump.
  • Installing and/or adding receptacles or light fixtures where one did not exist before.
  • Installing and/or adding a new electrical panel and breakers.
  • Restoring power after it has been interrupted because of a hazardous condition.
Examples that would not require an electrical permit:

  • Replacing a receptacle where one already existed.
  • Replacing a faulty circuit breaker of the same size and type.
  • Replacing or changing a light fixture.
  • Installing phones or coax cable (cable TV).
Inspections Required
Construction or work for which a permit is required shall be subject to inspection by the building official and such construction or work shall remain accessible and exposed for inspection purposes until approved.
For Electrical Permits the most common inspections are Rough-in and Final. Some types of work only require a Final inspection. All appropriate inspections are required to be completed prior to issuance of Final Approval.
Things to remember about Electrical Permits

  • A homeowner may obtain a permit if he/she is performing the work on their own home. Else a licensed electrician is required for obtaining electrical permits.
  • It is the permit holders responsibility to insure the site is accessible for inspection. If the inspector cannot gain entry the applicant may be charged and additional inspection fee.
  • The penalty for starting electrical work prior to obtaining a permit is $1,000 for the first offense and $2,000 for any subsequent offences.
Click to expand...
The Colorado State Statues define: "Electrical work" means wiring for, installing, and repairing electrical apparatus and equipment for electric light, heat, and power.
I find this definition very all consuming and while a reasonable concept of the examples I listed should be exempt from permitting all examples are within the definition of electrical work. There are a number of exemptions within the statues such as coaxial, & speaker wiring.
While I agree with your anology statement: as per stated
recept replacement? -- AFCI protection required 1/1/14 --replace any electrical system the installation of which is regulated by the Kentucky Building and Electrical Codes
move single switch 10'? -- minor extension -- alter any electrical system the installation of which is regulated by the Kentucky Building and Electrical Codes
Breaker replacement? -- equipment repair -- repair any electrical system the installation of which is regulated by the Kentucky Building and Electrical Codes
Broken PVC raceway? -- Service work -- alter, repair, remove any electrical system the installation of which is regulated by the Kentucky Building and Electrical Codes

Maybe there is exemption specific to cost as City of Dallas has done.

Any owner or authorized agent who intends to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical system the installation of which is regulated by the Kentucky Building and Electrical Codes, or to cause any such work to be done, shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required permit.
 
mwm1752 said:
Maybe there is exemption specific to cost as City of Dallas has done.


I have also seen other jurisdictions sate items such as all electrical work to be preformed by an EC that is listed within the municipality or a single person may do the work as long as he/she has homesteaded the property and is living on the premises with inspections required.
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Last edited:
mwm1752 said:
Interested about the level of electrical work done in order for your AHJ to require a permit. Where is the line drawn & which code section.

recept replacement? -- AFCI protection required 1/1/14
move single switch 10'? -- minor extension
Breaker replacement? -- equipment repair
Broken PVC raceway? -- Service work
Click to expand...

We require permits for all work except mainteance & repairs to existing systems which were lawfully installed with a permit when the valuation of said maintenace & repairs does not exceed $500.

Exception to the exception is all work requiring service disconnect & reconnect by the electric utility requires a permit (that gets us paid to go out and do the reconnect inspection).

That base should be raised to $1,000 or even $2,000 but it is what it is.
 
From NE State Electrical Act:

81-2124 Electrical installations; subject to inspection.

(1) All new electrical installations for commercial or industrial applications, including installations
both inside and outside of the buildings, and for public-use buildings and facilities and any
installation at the request of the owner shall be subject to the inspection and enforcement provisions
of the State Electrical Act. Nothing in here stating minimum dollar amounts before inspection necessary, other sections clarify what is "maintenance" which is not applicable and is basically repair and replacement with similar items. Agriculture operations are exempted at this time, but are not clearly mentioned in the Act.

(2) All new electrical installations for residential applications in excess of single-family residential
applications shall be subject to the inspection and enforcement provisions of the act. Anything in multifamily dwellings basically is no different then what is mentioned above in (1).

(3) All new electrical installations for single-family residential applications requiring new electrical
service equipment shall be subject to the inspection and enforcement provisions of the act. Single family dwellings only require inspection when service equipment is installed. A new home has a new service. A major renovation that does not get new service equipment installed would not be required to have a permit and inspection. All other work that is done when the new service is installed is inspected as well, so a major renovation with new service would need permit, as well as inspection of all new work.

(4) Existing electrical installations observed during inspection which constitute an electrical hazard
shall be subject to the act. Existing installations shall not be deemed to constitute an electrical
hazard if the wiring when originally installed was installed in accordance with the electrical code in
force at the time of installation and has been maintained in that condition. If there is a hazard observed when inspector is at the site, they kind of use some discretion as to how dangerous the problem may be, but they are able to make correction requests for something they see that is existing. If the inspector has to walk by something with exposed live parts to get to some of your installation to inspect - you may as well plan ahead of time to repair/replace that item or inspector will likely tell you you will repair/replace it.

If permit/inspection is not required the State Electrical Act still says in another section:
Except as provided in section 81-2108, 81-2110, or 81-2112, no person shall, for another, plan, lay
out, or supervise the installation of wiring, apparatus, or equipment for electrical light, heat, power,
and other purposes unless he or she is licensed by the board as a Class B electrical contractor, an
electrical contractor, a Class A master electrician, or a Class B master electrician. So you are still supposed to be licensed to do wiring in most instances, some exceptions are homeowners working on their "primary" residence, or some special licenses but you are limited to what that license permits you to do.

NEC is also the code that is adopted as law, so even if a permit or inspection is not required you are still supposed to follow which ever edition of NEC that is in effect, and it now is the 2014. If you don't follow NEC on a job not required to have a permit, nothing is likey to happen. Should someone ever be injured, killed or have property loss because of your non code compliant installation, it certainly will not help you in any related lawsuit.
 
Permit

Permit

In the PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF MASSACHUSETTS you have to pull permit for all the above electrical work MGL 143, if you are hired to do electrical repairs,replacements, or maintenance, if money exchanges hands not if you do it for free. :?:?
 
lowryder88h said:
In the PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF MASSACHUSETTS you have to pull permit for all the above electrical work MGL 143, if you are hired to do electrical repairs,replacements, or maintenance, if money exchanges hands not if you do it for free. :?:?
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You are saying you need a permit (and probably inspection) just to replace a switch or receptacle with equivalent replacement part?

I bet that law is never violated;)

Have inspector come out to inspect the replaced switch - and you could show him almost any switch and he wouldn't ever know which one actually was replaced.

What about fuse replacements?
 
wouldn't the use of "field serviceable" be appropriate here?

field serviceable = no permit needed
example:
swapping out "fixtures" (lights, receptacles, switches, breakers, fuses, AC unit, etc etc)

one post mentioned no permits for deletes, but i guess it depends on what type of deletes. removing receptacle from the box and leaving the tied wires (if tied) capped in the box with a box cover seems to be a no permit delete, but removing the whole box from the wall means other wire work, which in my mind falls into that "need to be inspected" category.

the industry and end-user would be better served if the NEC would craft an appendix that would define when inspections are needed, then towns could simply adopt that as their guidelines, vs every town/city across the US having their own using verbiage that is convoluted and open for interpretation, etc.

i know no inspection for me on this one, just swapped out a BRAF breaker in my panel.
 
FionaZuppa said:
wouldn't the use of "field serviceable" be appropriate here?

field serviceable = no permit needed
example:
swapping out "fixtures" (lights, receptacles, switches, breakers, fuses, AC unit, etc etc)

one post mentioned no permits for deletes, but i guess it depends on what type of deletes. removing receptacle from the box and leaving the tied wires (if tied) capped in the box with a box cover seems to be a no permit delete, but removing the whole box from the wall means other wire work, which in my mind falls into that "need to be inspected" category.

the industry and end-user would be better served if the NEC would craft an appendix that would define when inspections are needed, then towns could simply adopt that as their guidelines, vs every town/city across the US having their own using verbiage that is convoluted and open for interpretation, etc.

i know no inspection for me on this one, just swapped out a BRAF breaker in my panel.
Click to expand...

More work for the code committees with no benefit to the industry. When permits are required is a value judgement best left to the political process to resolve, however messily. It would drive me nuts to live in a state that didn't have a uniform code, but that's me. If I don't like it, I'm free to speak up on it. So is everyone else. Ideally, the final process reflects how the people want it done.
 
gadfly56 said:
More work for the code committees with no benefit to the industry. When permits are required is a value judgement best left to the political process to resolve, however messily. It would drive me nuts to live in a state that didn't have a uniform code, but that's me. If I don't like it, I'm free to speak up on it. So is everyone else. Ideally, the final process reflects how the people want it done.
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more work yes, terribly difficult to do no.
reading through the posts in this thread its obvious the lack of uniformity. for the sake of clarity and safety wouldn't a NEC appendix be ok as a guideline for towns/cities to adopt if they wanted to?
 
FionaZuppa said:
more work yes, terribly difficult to do no.
reading through the posts in this thread its obvious the lack of uniformity. for the sake of clarity and safety wouldn't a NEC appendix be ok as a guideline for towns/cities to adopt if they wanted to?
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Where do you draw the line on the NEC getting involved in the design/build process? Shall we all run everything in EMT or RMC because Chicago thinks it's a good idea? Make everyone use LL5 wire for fire alarm because New York City likes it? The NEC is a consensus standard meant to keep people from getting crisp and buildings from burning down. Regardless of the permit issue, it's still supposed to be done to code. Code adoption is political enough, there's no need to offer politicians another soap box to pontificate from.
 
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