Permit question for Mass.

Status
Not open for further replies.
ceb58

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
On another forum a person from Southern Massachusetts had a generator installed about 10 months ago by a licensed electrical contractor. The person states that in the contract it calls for permits and inspections. After he posted photos of the install I could count 8-10 electrical code violations and others were coming up with several gas code violations. One of the big ones was leaving the SE rated ATS to the now sub panel with 3 wires and not separating and isolating the neutrals and EGC in the sub panel. The HO has went to his local inspection dept. and found that there were no permits pulled for the electrical and gas install. What could/would be the penalty to the contractor for this? What/where dose the state have in place for this type action? And what type penalty? Here in NC you can file a complaint with the licensing board and they will investigate and you can be brought before the board. If you are found to be in violation you can be punished up to and including fines and suspension of your license or taken to court to face charges. I think he intends to contact the contractor to have him come fix the problems but I think he will be talking to a deaf ear.
 
Assuming the contractor has a license the licensing board can fine, suspend or revoke the license.

If they are a fly by night hack I am not sure what can happen.
 
iwire said:
Assuming the contractor has a license the licensing board can fine, suspend or revoke the license.

If they are a fly by night hack I am not sure what can happen.
Click to expand...
In addition there may be a performance bond against which claims can be made.
If the "contractor" is a fly-by-night hack, the owner will probably have to pay to get the appropriate permits pulled and corrections made, then take the contractor to small claims court if they can still find him. Whereas if the owner keeps about it he will be able to skate by with his unsafe install until such time as somebody alerts the AHJ. Since he has checked to see if permits were pulled, it may be too late for that though. :)
 
ceb58 said:
On another forum a person from Southern Massachusetts had a generator installed about 10 months ago by a licensed electrical contractor. The person states that in the contract it calls for permits and inspections. After he posted photos of the install I could count 8-10 electrical code violations and others were coming up with several gas code violations. One of the big ones was leaving the SE rated ATS to the now sub panel with 3 wires and not separating and isolating the neutrals and EGC in the sub panel. The HO has went to his local inspection dept. and found that there were no permits pulled for the electrical and gas install. What could/would be the penalty to the contractor for this? What/where dose the state have in place for this type action? And what type penalty? Here in NC you can file a complaint with the licensing board and they will investigate and you can be brought before the board. If you are found to be in violation you can be punished up to and including fines and suspension of your license or taken to court to face charges. I think he intends to contact the contractor to have him come fix the problems but I think he will be talking to a deaf ear.
Click to expand...

Here is the form...

The Board of State examiners of electricians

http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/docs/dpl/complaint.pdf

http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/licensee/dpl-boards/el/forms/

http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/licensee/dpl-boards/el/regulations/

The Board of State examiners of Plumbers and Gas fitters.

http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/licensee/dpl-boards/pl/




From what you're saying whomever did this work will face both boards,The plumbing Board is much harsher than the electricians board .

If he is licensed in either trade they can revoke or suspend his license and in this case the fine could be more than $1,000 because of not pulling permits for either electrical and plumbing.

if he's licensed in only one of the trades then he will get worse punishment then he would if he is not licensed at all,also it is highly unlikely that he is licensed in both trades since each trade is an 8,000 apprenticeship.


Do you have a link to that thread?,,You can PM it to me if you cannot post it thanks.
 
iwire said:
Assuming the contractor has a license the licensing board can fine, suspend or revoke the license.

If they are a fly by night hack I am not sure what can happen.
Click to expand...

Per the poster, the owner of the business is a licensed electrical contractor. He is also listed as a certified installer/dealer for the generator company.
 
ceb58 said:
Per the poster, the owner of the business is a licensed electrical contractor. He is also listed as a certified installer/dealer for the generator company.
Click to expand...

I once saw a generator install by a local contractor that was about as bad as you describe and he advertised on TV.
I was there to wire a basement room and walked away. Told H.O. you need to get that guy back over here and clean this up then call me. I never heard from him again.
Wasn't really surprised, I knew there was no way permits were pulled for it.
 
ceb58 said:
The person states that in the contract it calls for permits and inspections.
Click to expand...


I ran into the same thing with a water heater install. Big company (nation wide) and they charged the customer an extra $200 for permit fees.

I was doing the electrical for this new water heater so I actually got a permit (electrical) and told the homeowner to make sure they did pull the permit for the water heater install (he paid for it).

I don't know about other states but this happens a lot here. I guess if you are a big company with good lawyers it's cheaper to pay a few fines than get permits.
 
ceb58 said:
The person states that in the contract it calls for permits and inspections.
Click to expand...
Take a close look at the language of the contract. It might actually be saying that the homeowner is responsible for the the permit(s). Or it might refer to "any required permits and inspections" which leaves the contractor with the "out" that he honestly (yeah, sure:happysad:) felt that no permits were required.
 
GoldDigger said:
Take a close look at the language of the contract. It might actually be saying that the homeowner is responsible for the the permit(s). Or it might refer to "any required permits and inspections" which leaves the contractor with the "out" that he honestly (yeah, sure:happysad:) felt that no permits were required.
Click to expand...


Impossible in MA, only licensed contractors can get permits.
 
ceb58 said:
So you are saying that a home owner cannot pull a permit on their own property? Amazing how it differs from state to state.
Click to expand...

It's kind of a mess.

The way the laws are written only people doing electrical work for hire need a license.

Only licensed people doing work for hire need to pull permits, the laws are at the state level.

However our 360 something city and town building departments are not very good at following the laws.

Some will not issue a permit to HOs and refuse to inspect HO work

Some claim HOs cannot do electrical work on their home

Some will issue a permit and inspect HOs work

I have heard some actually give the HO an off the cuff test before issuing a permit.

I can post the laws later.

But the permit must be issued to the person / company doing the work.
 
HTML:
ceb58 said:
So you are saying that a home owner cannot pull a permit on their own property? Amazing how it differs from state to state.
Click to expand...

like he he said it depends on the town and also if it is a Multy family dwell in they get even more strict about it.

In the case of Plumbing and gas fitting only licensed plumbers can do any plumbing and they must pull permits first in most cases.
 
Here is the MA law requiring a license

MGL 141 Section 1A. No person, firm or corporation shall enter into, engage in, or work at the business or occupation of installing wires, conduits, apparatus, devices, fixtures, or other appliances for carrying or using electricity for light, heat, power, fire warning or security system purposes, unless such person, firm or corporation shall be licensed by the state examiners of electricians in accordance with this chapter and, with respect to security systems, unless such person, firm or corporation shall also be licensed by the commissioner of public safety in accordance with the provisions of sections fifty-seven to sixty-one, inclusive, of chapter one hundred and forty-seven.

This chapter shall not apply to: a person not engaged in the business described in this section who employs or contracts for the services of a person, firm or corporation engaged in such business; or to an apprentice employed by a person, firm or corporation licensed in accordance with this chapter; or to an agent, employee or assistant of a person, firm or corporation licensed in accordance with this chapter who does not engage in or perform the actual work described in this section.
Click to expand...

Notice that the above law allows a HO to work on their own home. It gets messy if they own an apartment building and want to wire that as well.

Here is the MA law for electrical permits, note again it applies to work 'for hire' only


(Part of MGL 143 sections 3L)

No person shall install for hire any electrical wiring or fixtures subject to this section without first or within five days after commencing the work giving notice to the inspector of wires appointed pursuant to the provisions of section thirty-two of chapter one hundred and sixty-six. Said notice shall be given by mailing or delivering a permit application form prepared by the board, to said inspector. Any person failing to give such notice shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars. This section shall be enforced by the inspector of wires within his jurisdiction and the state examiners of electricians.

Any person installing for hire electrical wiring or fixtures subject to this section shall notify the inspector of wires in writing upon the completion of the work. The inspector of wires shall, within five days of such notification, give written notice of his approval or disapproval of said work. A notice of disapproval shall contain specifications of the part of the work disapproved, together with a reference to the rule or regulation of the board of fire prevention regulations which has been violated.
Click to expand...

So in my opinion, per state law a HO can work on their own home and they are not required to get a permit.

Anything that local towns ask for beyond that is wrong.
 
iwire said:
Here is the MA law requiring a license



Notice that the above law allows a HO to work on their own home. It gets messy if they own an apartment building and want to wire that as well.

Here is the MA law for electrical permits, note again it applies to work 'for hire' only


(Part of MGL 143 sections 3L)



So in my opinion, per state law a HO can work on their own home and they are not required to get a permit.

Anything that local towns ask for beyond that is wrong.
Click to expand...

That means IF I wanted to come up there and work for free, I would not need to get them either?
 
Not as a business.

But I have on occasion traveled far distances to assist friends and family with certain projects.

Didn't get a dime for my efforts, therefore I was not engaging in the "business" or "for hire" as it were....
 
kbsparky said:
Not as a business.

But I have on occasion traveled far distances to assist friends and family with certain projects.

Didn't get a dime for my efforts, therefore I was not engaging in the "business" or "for hire" as it were....
Click to expand...

Is there a point here?

I posted the law, you seem to understand what it says.:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top