- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Does anyone know how this got into the 2008 NEC?
Phone Outlet required
- Thread starter infinity
- Start date
- Status
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
Thats 1 can and a string.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
_______________________________________________________________
16-207 Log #2655 NEC-P16 Final Action: Accept in Principle in Part
(800.156)
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Robert W. Jensen, dbi / Rep. BICSI, A Telecommunications
Association
Recommendation: Add new text to read:
800.156 Dwelling Unit Communications Outlets. For new construction, a
minimum of two communications outlet shall be installed; one within the
master bedroom and one within the living room or kitchen, and cabled to the
service provider demarcation point.
Substantiation: Currently there is no requirement for a communications outlet
in a dwelling unit. A communications outlet in the home is needed for many
reasons, but most important is for emergency services such as a simple call for
police, fire or rescue squad.
This proposal only affects newly constructed dwelling units. In addition to
the problem it solves for communications needs in a dwelling, the proposal is
also targeted at safety of technicians and emergency responding personnel
while enhancing the 5 key NFPA strategies to reduce fatal home fires.
1. Reduces the safety risk of electrocution to technicians where extended
length drill bits (54 to 72 inches) are typically used to install cables and
penetrate unseen electrical cables in the attic, wall and ceiling space. (See
pictures at end of this proposal)
2. Reduces the tripping hazard for fire protection personnel during a fire.
3. Reduces the need for home wiring for communications after occupancy
which typically involves tracing, handling, and snaking through electrical cable
pathways and spaces such as in attics and wall cavities which creates
potentially greater hazard (e.g., electrocution).
4. Increases the use of home protection systems and automation which
typically includes fire detection and direct dial-up remote monitoring systems.
5. This proposal ties directly to one of the 5 key NFPA strategies to reduce
fatal home fires (see attached ?Fire Loss in the United States During 2002?,
Michael J Karter, Jr., Fire Analysis and Research Division, NFPA).
6. Places communications outlets in homes to address fire safety needs of
young high user communications groups, older adults, and ADA affected.
7. A fine print note is used as a reference to a standard that specifies
installation requirements such as minimum separation from power cabling and
minimum requirements for cabling in support of the FCC mandate for category
3 cable or better. In addition, this standard references several NEC Articles for
meeting minimum requirements.
Note: Supporting material is available for review at NFPA Headquarters.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle in Part
Add new text to 800.156 to read as follows:
800.156 Dwelling Unit Communications Outlet. For new construction, a
minimum of one communications outlet shall be installed within the dwelling
and cabled to the service provider demarcation point.
Panel Statement: The requirement for at least one outlet within the dwelling
meets the submitter?s intent.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
_______________________________________________________________
16-207 Log #2655 NEC-P16 Final Action: Accept in Principle in Part
(800.156)
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Robert W. Jensen, dbi / Rep. BICSI, A Telecommunications
Association
Recommendation: Add new text to read:
800.156 Dwelling Unit Communications Outlets. For new construction, a
minimum of two communications outlet shall be installed; one within the
master bedroom and one within the living room or kitchen, and cabled to the
service provider demarcation point.
Substantiation: Currently there is no requirement for a communications outlet
in a dwelling unit. A communications outlet in the home is needed for many
reasons, but most important is for emergency services such as a simple call for
police, fire or rescue squad.
This proposal only affects newly constructed dwelling units. In addition to
the problem it solves for communications needs in a dwelling, the proposal is
also targeted at safety of technicians and emergency responding personnel
while enhancing the 5 key NFPA strategies to reduce fatal home fires.
1. Reduces the safety risk of electrocution to technicians where extended
length drill bits (54 to 72 inches) are typically used to install cables and
penetrate unseen electrical cables in the attic, wall and ceiling space. (See
pictures at end of this proposal)
2. Reduces the tripping hazard for fire protection personnel during a fire.
3. Reduces the need for home wiring for communications after occupancy
which typically involves tracing, handling, and snaking through electrical cable
pathways and spaces such as in attics and wall cavities which creates
potentially greater hazard (e.g., electrocution).
4. Increases the use of home protection systems and automation which
typically includes fire detection and direct dial-up remote monitoring systems.
5. This proposal ties directly to one of the 5 key NFPA strategies to reduce
fatal home fires (see attached ?Fire Loss in the United States During 2002?,
Michael J Karter, Jr., Fire Analysis and Research Division, NFPA).
6. Places communications outlets in homes to address fire safety needs of
young high user communications groups, older adults, and ADA affected.
7. A fine print note is used as a reference to a standard that specifies
installation requirements such as minimum separation from power cabling and
minimum requirements for cabling in support of the FCC mandate for category
3 cable or better. In addition, this standard references several NEC Articles for
meeting minimum requirements.
Note: Supporting material is available for review at NFPA Headquarters.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle in Part
Add new text to 800.156 to read as follows:
800.156 Dwelling Unit Communications Outlet. For new construction, a
minimum of one communications outlet shall be installed within the dwelling
and cabled to the service provider demarcation point.
Panel Statement: The requirement for at least one outlet within the dwelling
meets the submitter?s intent.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15
_______________________________________________________________
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
The poroblem I have is that it is impossible to comply with unless you contract with a service provider. If you have no contract with a service provider then there is no demarcation point to run the cable to. Also what it communications? The proposal intended to require it to be phone, but is cable also a communication outlet.
Don
Don
inspector 102
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Indiana
When you live in an area with the amish community, they do not want the telephone and television connections to their homes. How would you address the issue with these homes. I am sure this state will amend the code as they have in the past before it gets adopted.
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
IMO, it is just a requirement to install the phone lines, not to insure phone service. I think it's more of a "nanny state" requirement, but one I can live with.
Wonder if an EC could just install a pull string in an empty conduit, for future owners (should the home be sold)?
inspector 102 said:
Wonder if an EC could just install a pull string in an empty conduit, for future owners (should the home be sold)?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I agree that it is a requirement to install the line not necessarily to have service.
A home could have a phone service that would provide just emergency 911 calls without payng for phone service.
A home could have a phone service that would provide just emergency 911 calls without payng for phone service.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
I'll echo the "what provider" comment. My "phone" service is provided by the cable TV company. How would the builder know that, for a new construction situation? Which type of "cabling" would the builder have to provide (i.e., telephone wire or TV cable wire)?
Why would an electrician be wiring an Amish home? They do not allow electricity or telephone.
I have to agree that this makes no sense. Installing a "communications outlet" does not assure that communication will be available unless it is also required that telephone service be provided and a telephone installed! Having a jack with no service and no phone doesn't do much good. I think this is a last ditch effort by Ma Bell and others to preserve the old land-line phone system. Many young people no longer have hard-wired phones installed, they use cell-phone for everything. I am considering having my wall phone discontinued. It costs allot of money each month for me to have a phone that is used mostly by people trying to sell me products and services that I do not want!
I have to agree that this makes no sense. Installing a "communications outlet" does not assure that communication will be available unless it is also required that telephone service be provided and a telephone installed! Having a jack with no service and no phone doesn't do much good. I think this is a last ditch effort by Ma Bell and others to preserve the old land-line phone system. Many young people no longer have hard-wired phones installed, they use cell-phone for everything. I am considering having my wall phone discontinued. It costs allot of money each month for me to have a phone that is used mostly by people trying to sell me products and services that I do not want!
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Hey, in just one more year you will be as old as I am! :grin:haskindm said:
haskindm said:
My daughter has no phone service to her home, nor does the house have a Network Interface Device (the demarc box).
She does, however, have hard-wired phones. She uses her cell phone as her only phone, but when she goes home it "attaches" via bluetooth to a box that will route incoming calls to the phones in the house. She can also pick up an extension and place outgoing calls via the cell phone. So, her phone wiring never leaves the house. In effect, the cell phone is the demarcation point.
It's pretty cool - I'm thinking about doing the same thing.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
This requirement in 2008 is kind of silly. In 1978, when everyone had a land line maybe. I know a few people who do not have phone service in their homes and don't need them with cell phones now being de rigueur. Factor in those who will use FIOS, VOIP or some other service and it seems rather ridiculous to make this a mandatory code requirement.
And more importantly, since this appear in the electrical code, who is responsible to install this? The EC? The GC? The HO?
And more importantly, since this appear in the electrical code, who is responsible to install this? The EC? The GC? The HO?
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
So all these Amish people building new houses run that cable to where?
I agree... no demarc point, no cable required.
I agree... no demarc point, no cable required.
sguinn
Senior Member
- Location
- Blue Ridge, Ga
haskindm said:
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
360Youth
Senior Member
- Location
- Newport, NC
haskindm said:
Because it's there? :grin:
I come from amish territory in So. MD and more than you think do have electricity. Most do not, but some have moved that direction.
John Arendt
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
This was a discussion topic at the '08 Code Changes CEU seminar...
Back to the graphic above....the NEC does not dictate where the phone 'jack' has to be located within the dwelling! The graphic must be included by Mike for explanatory reasons only.
Usually the land line phone demarc is located adjacent to the electrical service, and so is the cable, and FIOs. Based on this statement, the EC installing a phone jack in the vicinity of the electrical panel, and a pc of Cat 5/6 (or whatever) to the exterior would be compliance to the NEC. Right?
The NEC does not specify a 'location' for the jack, but the other end must be by the demarc location. No mention is made for Cable or FIOs utilitys.
As to who is responsible? Gut wants to say the EC. DCA in Trenton has not committed a written decision yet. BTW, the '08 is not adopted here (NJ) yet.
Lastly, all new resi construction, and remodel/addition are wired for phone, and cable. 99% done by the EC's. FIOs is not in the area yet.
Back to the graphic above....the NEC does not dictate where the phone 'jack' has to be located within the dwelling! The graphic must be included by Mike for explanatory reasons only.
Usually the land line phone demarc is located adjacent to the electrical service, and so is the cable, and FIOs. Based on this statement, the EC installing a phone jack in the vicinity of the electrical panel, and a pc of Cat 5/6 (or whatever) to the exterior would be compliance to the NEC. Right?
The NEC does not specify a 'location' for the jack, but the other end must be by the demarc location. No mention is made for Cable or FIOs utilitys.
As to who is responsible? Gut wants to say the EC. DCA in Trenton has not committed a written decision yet. BTW, the '08 is not adopted here (NJ) yet.
Lastly, all new resi construction, and remodel/addition are wired for phone, and cable. 99% done by the EC's. FIOs is not in the area yet.
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
Last visit to KY i saw some amish using battery lanterns on the buggy to keep from getting killed.I have met some up there and have respect for them.I dought many even pull permits.You will not see wires unless they built it for one of us.
- Status