Physical Damage vs. Severe Physical Damage

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Rick 0920

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When electrical conduits are installed, section 10 (uses permitted) of each applicable article states under what conditions these conduits can be used. Who determines (other than the AHJ) where the line is drawn between physical damage and severe physical damage?
 
Imo, that will be an authority having jurisdiction call but on large jobs it may be the engineer's call or at least the electrical contractor installing the conduit.

The final judgment usually will be the authority having jurisdiction.

I think the more important question is what is severe damage. Certainly, a corrosive environment would be considered one area.
 
I doubt that the enabling legislation allows the AHJ that kind of discretion. They tend to take it on because no one wants to challenge it for fear of retaliation, which is always a reasonable fear when dealing with government entities.
 
In a well-planned job, the architect/engineer should indicate, via drawings and specifications, exactly what conduits/wireways/cable trays should be run in each area of the work. Those drawings and specs are submitted to the AHJ for review and approval. Once they are stamped and returned to the contractor(s), there should be no further issues. Of course, in the real world, every drawing will have a clause that the contractor "shall provide a code compliant installation fit for the intended purpose", attempting to put the final onus on the contractor, but that's life.
 
The NEC is pretty good about avoiding the "gray" areas by using clear and concise verbiage. I think this is one that needs to be discussed though. Let's say you're doing an Amazon or Dollar General distribution center with hundreds of forklifts buzzing around. Do you use RMC on exposed walls up to 6' AFF or will EMT suffice? EMT can be installed where exposed to "physical damage" but not "severe physical damage." One inspector could think it's fine and another would not. I know it's off the topic, but another gray area I've seen in the NEC is in 210.70 (A)(1). It is a revision in 2020 and it says that the switch needs to be located "NEAR" and entrance to a room!!!!! What if I put it 12" from the door and my inspector says that's not near it? I hope there can be some type of definition created that can at least give some examples of where this division of damages will be.
 
The NEC is pretty good about avoiding the "gray" areas by using clear and concise verbiage. I think this is one that needs to be discussed though. Let's say you're doing an Amazon or Dollar General distribution center with hundreds of forklifts buzzing around. Do you use RMC on exposed walls up to 6' AFF or will EMT suffice? EMT can be installed where exposed to "physical damage" but not "severe physical damage." One inspector could think it's fine and another would not. I know it's off the topic, but another gray area I've seen in the NEC is in 210.70 (A)(1). It is a revision in 2020 and it says that the switch needs to be located "NEAR" and entrance to a room!!!!! What if I put it 12" from the door and my inspector says that's not near it? I hope there can be some type of definition created that can at least give some examples of where this division of damages will be.
In general, no inspector has the discretion to determine such things. As a practical matter, they often take it upon themselves to do so and no one wants to challenge it for fear of the inevitable retaliation.

The enabling legislation might give the AHJ the authority to determine what such language means, but it should not be done on a case by case basis, nor should it ever be determined by an inspector. For instance, the AHJ might determine that the word "near" in this paragraph means within 12 inches and publish that.

You would think that when the NEC uses phrases like "severe physical damage" that they would bother to define what it means.

Personally, I do not think that mere forklift traffic in an area equates to severe physical damage. If the people driving the forklifts are so unsafe that they are hitting walls and EMT or conduit on a wall, that is not really an electrical problem, and trying to solve it by beefing up the EMT to RMC is not the real answer.
 
In general, no inspector has the discretion to determine such things. As a practical matter, they often take it upon themselves to do so and no one wants to challenge it for fear of the inevitable retaliation.

The enabling legislation might give the AHJ the authority to determine what such language means, but it should not be done on a case by case basis, nor should it ever be determined by an inspector. For instance, the AHJ might determine that the word "near" in this paragraph means within 12 inches and publish that.

You would think that when the NEC uses phrases like "severe physical damage" that they would bother to define what it means.

Personally, I do not think that mere forklift traffic in an area equates to severe physical damage. If the people driving the forklifts are so unsafe that they are hitting walls and EMT or conduit on a wall, that is not really an electrical problem, and trying to solve it by beefing up the EMT to RMC is not the real answer.
Ahhhh, welcome to the state of New Jersey, where, in accordance with "90.4 Enforcement", the AHJ has exactly that authority, as is the case in every jurisdiction that adopts the NEC and does not otherwise modify or delete 90.4.
 
Ahhhh, welcome to the state of New Jersey, where, in accordance with "90.4 Enforcement", the AHJ has exactly that authority, as is the case in every jurisdiction that adopts the NEC and does not otherwise modify or delete 90.4.
The code allows the AHJ to make such determinations, not an inspector.

90.4 Enforcement. This Code is intended to be suitable for
mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise
legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including signaling
and communications systems, and for use by insurance
inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement
of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of
the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials,
and for granting the special permission contemplated in a
number of the rules.
 
In general, no inspector has the discretion to determine such things. As a practical matter, they often take it upon themselves to do so and no one wants to challenge it for fear of the inevitable retaliation.

The code allows the AHJ to make such determinations, not an inspector.
In a lot of cases, the only AHJ is the inspector. On bigger jobs that I have done in the past, I was famous for sending a crazy amount of RFI's to the engineer. I was pretty good at the CYA game. It's the smaller jobs that we tend to get burned on, when the local inspector is the one who is in charge of rule interpretation. That's when I ended up having to do things twice.
 
Personally, I do not think that mere forklift traffic in an area equates to severe physical damage. If the people driving the forklifts are so unsafe that they are hitting walls and EMT or conduit on a wall, that is not really an electrical problem, and trying to solve it by beefing up the EMT to RMC is not the real answer.
Unfortunately, this is exactly why our codes are written like they are! Because people are unsafe. Why would a duplex receptacle in a garage ceiling installed for the use of a garage door opener have to be GFCI protected? Because some Darwin Award winner decided to plug in a weedeater and go out barefooted during a lightning storm! Not all of our codes are a result of electrical issues, they are from people issues.
 
One day I went to a car show. There was a sign on a car that said " Before you get divorced, the color of this car is purple".
That said, IMO some definitions are subjective.
In the case of physical damage and severe physical damage is it really can't be defined.

Ron
 
In a lot of cases, the only AHJ is the inspector. On bigger jobs that I have done in the past, I was famous for sending a crazy amount of RFI's to the engineer. I was pretty good at the CYA game. It's the smaller jobs that we tend to get burned on, when the local inspector is the one who is in charge of rule interpretation. That's when I ended up having to do things twice.
^^^This right here.
 
In a lot of cases, the only AHJ is the inspector. On bigger jobs that I have done in the past, I was famous for sending a crazy amount of RFI's to the engineer. I was pretty good at the CYA game. It's the smaller jobs that we tend to get burned on, when the local inspector is the one who is in charge of rule interpretation. That's when I ended up having to do things twice.
It does not work that way. As a practical matter it probably does, at least some times. The inspector can NEVER be the AHJ. The AHJ is determined by the enabling legislation. Typically the building department or contractor board. The inspector is usually a mere employee of the AHJ and as such has no more power to interpret things than he does to grant special permission.
 
It does not work that way. As a practical matter it probably does, at least some times. The inspector can NEVER be the AHJ. The AHJ is determined by the enabling legislation. Typically the building department or contractor board. The inspector is usually a mere employee of the AHJ and as such has no more power to interpret things than he does to grant special permission.
Yes. You are correct. But those of us who worked all of our careers in the field dealing with these people know very well what we have to do. We have to choose our battles wisely when dealing with inspectors. If we go over the inspectors' head and take it to the chief just to prove that we are right, we lose! We are the ones that have to deal with this guy on several inspections after, sometimes for years. There was one guy in Orlando, FL that I proved wrong (and it was small, stupid thing) I took it to the chief electrical inspector and had it overturned. I paid the price for that move every single time he inspected one of my jobs after that. That's why I say he is the AHJ. The man/woman can make your life hell if he/she wants to.
 
It does not work that way. As a practical matter it probably does, at least some times. The inspector can NEVER be the AHJ. The AHJ is determined by the enabling legislation. Typically the building department or contractor board. The inspector is usually a mere employee of the AHJ and as such has no more power to interpret things than he does to grant special permission.
Why are we going on about this? Aside from being a distinction without a difference in most cases, the substance of the original question here is about undefined language, not internal processes of AHJs. Regardless of who within an AHJ makes the ultimate decision or by what process, the AHJ is the one who interpets the meaning of 'physical damage' and 'severe'. Other than the dictionary and common understanding, there's nothing else to appeal to, unlike with certain other terms (such as 'readily accessible') where the NEC offers its own clarifying definition.

Your post #3 is wrong. The enabling legislation typically does give the AHJ discretion to interpret undefined language. Whether the AHJ as a whole backs up some individual inspector's initial interpretation or not is a different question, and is somewhat besides the point, although in my experience I've never seen them not do it in regards to 'physical damage.'
 
It does not work that way. As a practical matter it probably does, at least some times. The inspector can NEVER be the AHJ. The AHJ is determined by the enabling legislation. Typically the building department or contractor board. The inspector is usually a mere employee of the AHJ and as such has no more power to interpret things than he does to grant special permission.
It is unwise to use absolute terms when making a claim. I can provide more than one example where the fire sub-code official (as an example), who is the AHJ in the area of fire protection, as delegated by the legislature and the NJ DCA, is also the inspector for the jurisdiction.
 
It is unwise to use absolute terms when making a claim. I can provide more than one example where the fire sub-code official (as an example), who is the AHJ in the area of fire protection, as delegated by the legislature and the NJ DCA, is also the inspector for the jurisdiction.
This would be a violation of due process, but maybe that is not an issue in NJ.
 
Most wiring methods are not allowed where subject to physical damage. RMC is the exception? I do not understand how any wiring method is allowed where subject to physical damage. The dictionary defines: damage physical harm caused to something in such a way as to impair its value, usefulness, or normal function.
RMC can be damaged and remain in service but EMT cannot?
 
All this talk about retaliation.... I guess it's true that many people never really grow up. They just get more sophisticated at being childish.
 
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