Pics

[220/221]

Here are some pics of what should have been a simple panel change.

Original AC breaker was bad and would trip occaisionally during our famous summers. I replaced the breaker last summer to provide temp power and left a big note on the panel.

Neighborhoods built in the early 60's here have 3 phase delta feeding them just to power the AC's. I am guessing that in the olden days, AC's were only available in 3 phase???? Most of these installations had a delta breaker installed in a single phase panel. The high leg was fed into the breaker straight from the meter. It picked up the other two legs from the bus.

The only 3 phase meter panel combo comes with 24 spaces. Not enough when you can only use 2/3 of them so I try to leave the meter can in place and just change out the panel when I can.


I don't know what the green stuff was. It felt like paint and it was still wet!. They used white paint to identify the neutral. The green wire was not painted.:-?

I disconnected all the wiring and pulled the panel screws but it wouldn't budge. They put the chase nipples behind the siding.

I chopped out some siding so I could enter the panel in 3 different locations for a cleaner install.

I'll get a better pic of the interior tommorrow so we can play spot the violations. I absolutely hate wire nuts in a panel but the SE was just too bad to use so I cut off as much as I could. It looks fine with the cover on

 

[wireguru]

could you, and would it be more cost effective, to have a 3ph enclosed breaker or fused disco for the A/C and a single phase panel for the house vs the 3ph main breaker panel?

 

[iaov]

Good pics 220. Your wire nuts look fine too!:smile:

 

[electricalperson]

i always like the pictures you post. you do nice work

 

[peter d]

I absolutely hate wire nuts in a panel but the SE was just too bad to use so I cut off as much as I could.

No reason to hate something that's perfectly fine. But I can't help but find it funny that you don't hate code violations you knowingly install but hate stuff that's compliant.

As for the green stuff, that's the plasticizer that's part of the pvc making process. Sometimes when they used too much of it, it just oozes out like it did in the wire in your pics.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I am curious about bending radius of the SE conductors as they enter the right hand side of the enclosure, just across from the circuit breakers. Table 312.6(B) applies in this instance. The stress put on the insulation just in the portion that is bent in the fashion seen cannot be good for the conductor, especially with the heat your area experiences. I would say this install is borderline...

 

[peter d]

I am curious about bending radius of the SE conductors as they enter the right hand side of the enclosure, just across from the circuit breakers. Table 312.6(B) applies in this instance. The stress put on the insulation just in the portion that is bent in the fashion seen cannot be good for the conductor, especially with the heat your area experiences. I would say this install is borderline...

Don't waste your time Pierre. 220 has already made it abundantly clear that he does not care about code compliance.

 

[electricmanscott]

But I can't help but find it funny that you don't hate code violations you knowingly install but hate stuff that's compliant.

.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[COFFEE TIME]

Here are some pics of what should have been a simple panel change.

Original AC breaker was bad and would trip occaisionally during our famous summers. I replaced the breaker last summer to provide temp power and left a big note on the panel.

Neighborhoods built in the early 60's here have 3 phase delta feeding them just to power the AC's. I am guessing that in the olden days, AC's were only available in 3 phase???? Most of these installations had a delta breaker installed in a single phase panel. The high leg was fed into the breaker straight from the meter. It picked up the other two legs from the bus.

The only 3 phase meter panel combo comes with 24 spaces. Not enough when you can only use 2/3 of them so I try to leave the meter can in place and just change out the panel when I can.


I don't know what the green stuff was. It felt like paint and it was still wet!. They used white paint to identify the neutral. The green wire was not painted.:-?

I disconnected all the wiring and pulled the panel screws but it wouldn't budge. They put the chase nipples behind the siding.

I chopped out some siding so I could enter the panel in 3 different locations for a cleaner install.

I'll get a better pic of the interior tommorrow so we can play spot the violations. I absolutely hate wire nuts in a panel but the SE was just too bad to use so I cut off as much as I could. It looks fine with the cover on

in picture # 2 whats with the 4 pole 40 amp circuit breaker? just asking.

 

[220/221]

could you, and would it be more cost effective, to have a 3ph enclosed breaker or fused disco for the A/C and a single phase panel for the house vs the 3ph main breaker panel?

I have done a fused disco in a pinch to get an AC up and running in the summer but I doubt it's compliant. It seems dangerous to have to pull the meter to disconnect that 3rd leg.

in picture # 2 whats with the 4 pole 40 amp circuit breaker? just asking

.

That's the delta breaker. It gets A and B legs from the bus (white and black) and C (red) in and out from the meter.

Don't waste your time Pierre. 220 has already made it abundantly clear that he does not care about code compliance.

Uhhhh....you forgot the smiley face thing. :grin: I am more concerned with safety than code. One example: There is no way in heck that I would install unfused conductor cable in someone's home. Perfectly legal for some reason, but it just aint smart.

As for the green stuff, that's the plasticizer that's part of the pvc making process. Sometimes when they used too much of it, it just oozes out like it did in the wire in your pics.

Cool, thanks. It's only on the white wires and still oozing after all these years.

I am curious about bending radius of the SE conductors as they enter the right hand side of the enclosure

You mean the left hand side? What is the rule here? Can #6 cable not legally enter thru the back of a panel? I have done hundreds of these things and have never seen wire this brittle back into the sheath. I did not like it at all. Crackly insulation with bare wire woven all around it. Not good design. All I can do is write it up on the invoice that these need to be replaced. Actually, I should write up that I can't re energize them and leave them disconnected.

 

[charlietuna]

Looks to me the meter socket has seeen better days--i would have changed it out--look at the jaws and the heat damage! my .02 CENTS

 

[Cow]

Looks to me the meter socket has seeen better days--i would have changed it out--look at the jaws and the heat damage! my .02 CENTS

Are you sure that isn't grease?

I think it looks fine for a service change. Personally, I grade service changes on a different level than new construction. If the panel is plumb, covers the holes in the siding behind it, and the wires that are too short are good enough to splice onto, what else could you ask for?

Good work.

 

[mark32]

Please forgive my ignorance, but this 40 amp breaker set up is causing me some confusion. Obviously it works but I don't understand how the high leg doesn't create a short when the breaker is flipped on.

 

[cdslotz]

The ordinance here requires that you split the 3ph from the 1ph. You could have put a wireway below a 1ph panel then tap to a 3ph safety switch to run that one 3ph load. Now you have a high leg on every B phase breaker slot, which someone could plug a 1P breaker that is 208V to ground.

 

[LarryFine]

Please forgive my ignorance, but this 40 amp breaker set up is causing me some confusion. Obviously it works but I don't understand how the high leg doesn't create a short when the breaker is flipped on.

Picture a typical 2-pole breaker, each pole's input receiving its power from the stabs onto the bus beneath it. Next, picture a 2-pole breaker with, instead of stab contacts, the two inputs tied together, and nothing making contact with the bus beneath.

What I described second above is basically two 1-pole breakers in series, from output terminal, into the breaker, into the second breaker, and out through the second output terminal. One breaker body could, in fact, be a hollow body with just a jumper.

Now, picture the two 2-pole breakers all riveted together to resemble a 4-pole breaker. Look at it as a 3-pole breaker plugged onto a 1-ph panel, with the third pole receiving its power through a 'dummy' fourth body instead of the bus, which is waht this actually is.

See, the panel itself can only supply two line conductors, so the third pole is brought into the four-body 3-pole breaker via the spare body, so all three poles can be switched simultaneously, as if it were installed in a 3-ph panel.

The reason it's called a Delta breaker is because the original high-leg Delta (often an open Delta) began as a modification to an existing 1-ph service, which is why the 120/240v portion of a 3-ph high-leg service is identical to a 120/240v 1-ph service.

When I was younger, a friend's parents house had the usual three service drop conductors along with a #10 from the pole, all of which went through the single meter, then three #10's were tapped and went through a 3p fused disco to the central-A/C compressor unit.

The rest of the house had the usual 1-ph fuse panel. The A/C unit was the only load that used the third conductor. This fits right in with the high-leg Deltas I see around here; the high leg conductor is often smaller than the others.

Added: Remember, electrical systems have evolved over time. Nobody would construct a high-leg Delta service today from the ground up. The only reason would be to conform to an existing supply or system, which I have done.

 

[bjp_ne_elec]

Don't see what you did above the panel, as you opened up the siding - so I'm curious how you finished that opening you put in the siding to expose the NM.

 

[steelersman]

Don't see what you did above the panel, as you opened up the siding - so I'm curious how you finished that opening you put in the siding to expose the NM.

All he needed to do is cover up the cut out portion he made with the panel and caulk it realy well.

 

[mark32]

Thank you so much for that explanation Larry. I thought I was losing my mind when I viewed that photo, not to mention that no one except for one other member questioned it. Thanks again, Mark

 

[220/221]

Please forgive my ignorance, but this 40 amp breaker set up is causing me some confusion. Obviously it works but I don't understand how the high leg doesn't create a short when the breaker is flipped on.

What Larry said. The bottom two wires are in and out....no bus contact.

I'm curious how you finished that opening you put in the siding to expose the NM.

The panel covered it and I caulked around it to keep out any of our 7" of annual rainfall. In retrospect, I should have cut a larger piece out and screwed it back in place. The holes don't show but they are still there.

PS. Meter socket was in good shape, just a little dirty.