Pictures of "dirty" backup power...

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great post. I wonder if using a cheapo inverter on my truck has any ill effects on batteries and chargers for cordless tools? I was looking into buying a nice 400 watt pure sine wave inverter for my van so I dont have to lug chargers and batteries out of my truck all the time.
 
Thank you! It is the cold weather which instigated this.

People are trying to provide backup power for their furnaces due to power outages, but with the new electronic furnaces, they are having trouble with modified and square wave inverters as well as dirty power from generators.

I think I found the solution to this and it is called an "Online UPS" with "Pure Sine Wave".

This UPS *always* converts AC to DC and then back to AC again. Always providing perfectly clean power. Here is one such model...
http://www.tripplite.com/shared/product-pages/en/HTR102U.pdf
 
"Modified" sine wave

"Modified" sine wave

I have had this exact discussion before, and could NOT find ANY evidence that the "modified" sine wave output had ANY ill effects even on high-end electronics.

If ANYONE can put forth any information debating that, I would love to see it.
 
I have had this exact discussion before, and could NOT find ANY evidence that the "modified" sine wave output had ANY ill effects even on high-end electronics.

If ANYONE can put forth any information debating that, I would love to see it.

so why do they market some inverters "used for medical equpment"?
 
so why do they market some inverters "used for medical equpment"?



Somewhat of a broad question seeing as how the equipment could potentially be life threating when the input of the equipment is designed for a perfect waveform and MAY not function properly, but the term we are looking at, is "may" not.

I am looking for,...."prove it".
 
I vaguely remember discussing this before, and I still have this picture I drew regarding the difference modified square wave and modified sine wave:



Anyways, what would a modified square wave look like after going through a 1:1 isolation xformer?
 
I vaguely remember discussing this before, and I still have this picture I drew regarding the difference modified square wave and modified sine wave:
Anyways, what would a modified square wave look like after going through a 1:1 isolation xformer?

Pretty much the same as went in.
 
I have had this exact discussion before, and could NOT find ANY evidence that the "modified" sine wave output had ANY ill effects even on high-end electronics.

If ANYONE can put forth any information debating that, I would love to see it.
It's a fair point and I suppose for many applications it wouldn't matter.
But I can give you an instance of where a dirty supply did cause problems.
We did an upgrade of an old DC (SCR based) variable speed drive system in a paper mill. The project was the replacement of the old analog electronics with a modern digital design. The digital design was from a third party VSD manufacturer and something we had done elsewhere but in this particular case, it proved to be very problematic.
Supply voltage distortion was affecting the firing angle in the new electronics.
The magnitude of the distortion was 14%, so it was clearly visible on a scope but the waveform was still quite recognisably of a sinusoidal general shape.
The solution was to add a 5deg filter to the synchronising supply of the new electronics.
 
Maybe I'm missing something. I understand why devices wouldn't want spikes and dips in the power, but I don't understand why any device would have a problem with a nice square wave (providing the equivalent rms was attenuated ). Perhaps someone can enlighten me ?
 
Interesting post. Several years ago while out of power I ran my house off a generator and the clock in my microwave went haywire. When poco power was restored the clock still was out of whack. I unplugged my microwave and used a battery pack and an inverter to run power to the microwave and the clock went back to normal. It was a digital clock and I didn't run the cooking portion. Don't really understand why but it worked. Square sine wave?
 
It is hard to say which power quality conditions effect the operations of equipment. In practice, a computer/server can be without power for 20ms and still operate, because the power supply does quite a bit of cleaning of the input voltage before sending the output.
My PC can take 100VAC to 230VAC and still work fine, because of the normal power supply conditioning.
Maybe a square wave is okay, and maybe not. It depends on the equipment.
I've seen many double corded servers that have one supply as Phase A and the other supply Phase B, and they work fine normally and during failover conditions. Now that is not a square wave, but that is two inputs that are out of phase and still the output to the server is fine.
JMHO
 
SEO,
Your clock may have been determining how long one second is but watching input power sine wave peaks. If the power quality is bad, the clock may have gotten confused because it detected lots of peaks, rather than 60 positives per second.
 
I have had this exact discussion before, and could NOT find ANY evidence that the "modified" sine wave output had ANY ill effects even on high-end electronics.

If ANYONE can put forth any information debating that, I would love to see it.

The following was copied from Xantrex (a high quality inverter manufacturer) regarding true sine wave vs. modified sine waves and thier affects on different electronics:

What are the practical differences between modified sine wave (MSW) and true sine wave (TSW) output?

Most AC products run fine on MSW inverters. TSW inverters are about two to three times as expensive per watt due to having more sophisticated design and manufacturing requirements, and more expensive components. As a result, most people prefer to use MSW inverters if their applications allow it. Xantrex Technology Inc. does not guarantee that your AC application will work with an MSW inverter, and we advise our customers to check with the manufacturer of your AC device as to whether or not it will run with a Xantrex MSW inverter or whether you should purchase a Xantrex TSW product for your application.



Can I turn an MSW inverter into a TSW inverter?

If you have an MSW inverter and suspect you need a TSW inverter, please note there is no ?filter? or ?retrofit? you can apply to the output of an MSW inverter to ?clean up the output? or ?turn it into TSW?.



Here are a few pointers about which kind of inverter to use:



In general, any device that senses either voltage peaks or zero crossings could have problems when running from MSW. Devices such as these should be run from TSW inverters. Ham radio and CB radio operators may notice RF noise from MSW inverters; in that case do not run the radio and the inverter at the same time. Electronics that modulate RF (radio frequency) signals on the AC line will not work and may be damaged. You may notice hum or buzz in the audio of TV?s, radios and satellite systems used with MSW inverters. Audiophiles or professionals using sophisticated audio, remote measurement, surveillance or telemetry equipment should use TSW.



Examples of problem devices are motor speed controllers employing triacs, and some small battery rechargers that do not incorporate a transformer between the utility power and the load. To help you visualize this, if there isn?t a ?wall wart? between the battery charger (or the battery in the device) and the AC plug, don?t use MSW.


Please note two other common problem loads, electric shavers and emergency flashlights. Both of these items have batteries in them but connect directly into the wall to charge, without an external transformer. Don?t use items like these with an MSW inverter. If you do use an MSW inverter with a transformer-less charger, your product will likely be damaged. Garage door openers, laser printers and large strobes used in photography have all been reported as trouble loads for MSW inverters; they either don?t work at all or stop working entirely, so don?t take a chance ? use TSW.


As a general rule, products operating through an AC adapter will work fine from an MSW inverter. These include laptops and cell phone chargers, video games, camcorder and digital camera chargers. Televisions generally work well; some VCR?s with inexpensive power supplies run poorly. Consider switching to another brand of VCR in that case. A potential solution for RV?ers or off-grid cottagers is to purchase a small TSW inverter (such as the RS400) to run TV, VCR and audio equipment, and a larger MSW inverter (such as the XPower 1750 Plus) for the coffee maker, hair dryer and microwave.
 
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