Piggy back breakers

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marinesgt0411

marinesgt0411

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Naples,FL 34110-9285
Is a piggy back breaker considered as one or two OCPD and where could I find it in the code.

My opinion is it is two

also where do I find that only 42 OCPD are allowed in a panel (2002 code)
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

It's 2 separate OCPD's. Before you start plugging any of these piggy-backed breakers in make sure the panel will accept them. Just because the code says you can have 42 circuits doesn't mean that the manufacturer made the panel to accept these breakers. There may only be certain sections of the panel that will accept them. In addition the instruction sheet on the door of the panel should state that they are acceptable. If you're getting this inspected you may have to prove to the inspector that these breakers are acceptable. That's a job, in and of itself.
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

Heres the situation

1)club house remodel
2) under clubhouse is where golf carts are kept
3)plumber had core drilling done
4)core drill cut through numerous conduits
5)job is to re pipe for receptacles and lights
6)job is to use existing panels and circuits
7)one panel 32 20 amp breakers 1 2pole 20 breaker 8 piggy back breakers
8)second panel 20 20?amp breakers 4 2pole 20's 14 piggy back breakers

stuck between rock and hard place owner does not want another panel 408.35 (2005) 408.15 (2002)says I need one

if it were easy anyone could do it
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

Originally posted by marinesgt0411:
Heres the situation

1)club house remodel
2) under clubhouse is where golf carts are kept
3)plumber had core drilling done
4)core drill cut through numerous conduits
5)job is to re pipe for receptacles and lights
6)job is to use existing panels and circuits
7)one panel 32 20 amp breakers 1 2pole 20 breaker 8 piggy back breakers
8)second panel 20 20?amp breakers 4 2pole 20's 14 piggy back breakers

stuck between rock and hard place owner does not want another panel 408.35 (2005) 408.15 (2002)says I need one

if it were easy anyone could do it
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The code doesn't say circuits, it says OCPDs. A piggyback is considered 2 OCPDs. I also say WOW! :eek:
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

The owner wants another panel. He just doesn't want to have to PAY for another panel, after he already paid to have all that other work added - incorrectly.
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

It doesn't seem to me that you are adding any loads, but rather are repairing damaged circuits. So perhaps you don't need to add any OCPDs. But if it looks like you need more breakers, let me ask this: Do you have the option of changing which outlets are powered by which breakers? Perhaps you can combine the loads in a way that allows you to use the existing 84 breaker slots to power all the required loads.
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

No I am not changing the load
no I am not adding any circuits
yes I am repairing what already exists

my problem is that a permit was pulled for this repair so it will be inspected and I am affrayed that when the inspector sees these panels he will have the same reaction that I had

as for combining things that is not an option each receptacle on its own circuit each duplex on two circuits each quadraplex on 4 circuits

getting this abortion up to code is going to be a real headache or should I say nightmare for me

by the way how do I put a quadraplex on 4 circuits and still have it simultaneously disconnect with the breakers do they make breaker ties to tie 2 2pole breakers together
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

ITE u's 2 make a double pole mini for 220 heating circuits.Dont know if anyone else makes.
Rick
( i think it switched inside and outside)
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

Do those panels that have the piggybacks (or twins, or thins) have a UL listing for them? In other words, were those twins or the panel "customized" in order for them to be installed?

I have seen panels "twined out" by having the top 1/3 or so with regular single or double poles, and the bottom 2/3's or so jammed with twins. However, nothing was forced. The panels readily accepted the breakers. And these panels have "final" inspection stickers on them from the AHJ.

Some busses have "V" notches for twins. Some breakers have "restrictor plates". Some have only so many "nubs" to accept thins.

Okay dumb question here, please don't bite my head off.

Could it be, that the Not more than 42 overcurrent devices be considering the piggyback or twin as one device, and the thin as 1/2 a device?

I know, For the purpose of this article, a 2-pole circuit breaker shall be considered two overcurrent devices But to me, that's because a 2-pole takes 2 spaces on the buss. A piggyback or a twin, only take 1 space on the buss.

Just asking. :)
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

If you go to the "search" feature of this forum and do a search for "42 circuits per panel" you'll find several interesting comments on this subject. Here are a few comments from regular contributors :

408.4 Classification of Panelboards. Panelboards shall be classified for the purposes of this article as either lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboards or power panelboards, based on their content. A lighting and appliance branch circuit is a branch circuit that has a connection to the neutral of the panelboard and that has overcurrent protection of 30 amperes or less in one or more conductors.
(A) Lighting and Appliance Branch-Circuit Panelboard.
A lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard is one having more than 10 percent of its overcurrent devices protecting lighting and appliance branch circuits.
(B) Power Panelboard. A power panelboard is one having 10 percent or fewer of its overcurrent devices protecting lighting and appliance branch circuits.
408.15 Number of Overcurrent Devices on One Panelboard. Not more than 42 overcurrent devices (other than those provided for in the mains) of a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard shall be installed in any one cabinet or cutout box.
A lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard shall be provided with physical means to prevent the installation of more overcurrent devices than that number for which the
panelboard was designed, rated, and approved.
For the purposes of this article, a 2-pole circuit breaker shall be considered two overcurrent devices; a 3-pole circuit
breaker shall be considered three overcurrent devices.

--------------------
Pierre Belarge
Instructor & Industry Advocate, NY

***************************************************

According to Anthony Montuori, Chief Inspector for the NY Board of Fire Underwriters, a lighting panel was restricted to 42 circuits as the result of a 1928 fire at the Waldorf Astoria. The cause of that fire was determined to be from an electric panel wired with type "R" cable whose overall heat load caused the fire. The electrical apparatus of the time could safely handle a 42 circuit panel while a larger panel could not.


From this site: Tradeslang.com

--------------------
Bryan Holland
Electrical Council of Florida
City of North Port Electrical Inspector

*********************************************

If you stop and think about the logic of the 42 circuit rule, we all know how tight the trough area can be inside a breaker panel that is loaded with 40 or 42 circuits. Can you imagine what it would be like if we were permitted to install piggy backed breakers in all the positions and thereby creating an 80 or 84 circuit panel? Forget about the phase conductors for a moment, where do you land the neutrals and EGC's. How about the heat generated from all the circuit wires inside tha panel?

[ February 25, 2006, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: goldstar ]
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

Originally posted by Minuteman:

Some busses have "V" notches for twins. Some breakers have "restrictor plates". Some have only so many "nubs" to accept thins.

Okay dumb question here, please don't bite my head off.

Just asking. :)
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So is a piggyback considered two devices, while a stack switch or duplex receptacle is considered one device?
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

UL is very clear on this. To get a panel listed it must have provisions to prevent more than 42 circuits from being installed in the panel. They call this CTL, circuit Limiting. The panel must have a "label" inside of it showing the number circuits it is designed for. This has been a UL requirement for almost 30 years.

This would never be a problem if electricians
(I have seen more of these vioaltions by electricaians than by DIYs) did not use non-CTL breakers which are intended "for replacement use only in non-CTL listed panels".

For Square D the correct tandem breaker is the QOTxxxx family. The QOxxxx are for use only in panels built prior to the early 70's that show tandem breaker spaces on the interior "label". I wish distributors would stop stocking the non-CTL breakers.
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

Originally posted by jim dungar:
UL is very clear on this. To get a panel listed it must have provisions to prevent more than 42 circuits from being installed in the panel.
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Originally posted by Minuteman:
408.15 (2002) Not more than 42 overcurrent devices
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Well, UL may be very clear on this, but that's not the way I read 408.15 I think that a piggyback is one device - for 2 circuits.
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

So Michael, are you saying you don't care about UL Listing requirements and manufacturers instructions?
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

No Jim, quite the opposite. What I am saying is - Somewhere there has to be an explanation to what I perceive as conflicting information. UL says circuits NEC says devices.

Hey, if this stuff was easy - Plumbers could do it.
 
Re: Piggy back breakers

Jim,
This would never be a problem if electricians (I have seen more of these vioaltions by electricaians than by DIYs) did not use non-CTL breakers which are intended "for replacement use only in non-CTL listed panels".
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Part of the problem is that few supply houses have anything other than non-CTL breakers, (at least in this area), and I've never seen an non-CTL breaker at a big box store.
 
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