Plan stamping
- Thread starter peterelec
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Plan stamping
He can't stamp your drawings unless he personally supervised and directed the design.
Don
He can't stamp your drawings unless he personally supervised and directed the design.
Don
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Plan stamping
I wish Don were absolutely correct; unfortunately some States do permit review only. I will not seal anything not under my direct supervision, but my State permits it under current rules.
I think our colleague Charlie Beck has the best alternate approach to this and I hope he will comment on it.
I wish Don were absolutely correct; unfortunately some States do permit review only. I will not seal anything not under my direct supervision, but my State permits it under current rules.
I think our colleague Charlie Beck has the best alternate approach to this and I hope he will comment on it.
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: Plan stamping
In CA, a licensed contractor ( C-10 electrical) can sign and stamp plans where he is doing the work shown.
Sometimes I wish that were not permitted.
In CA, a licensed contractor ( C-10 electrical) can sign and stamp plans where he is doing the work shown.
Sometimes I wish that were not permitted.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Plan stamping
Every State has its own rules. But the basic ?truth? about PE seals is that they do not directly attest to the accuracy of the design, nor to code compliance. The drawings better have those things, or the engineer will likely be taken to task. But the engineer?s seal and signature are not saying ?I agree with this design.? What the engineer?s seal and signature mean is this: ?This work was done by me or under my supervision.? This can be translated to: ?Send the lawsuit to my office.? The real intent is to avoid any quibbling over who did what and who should take the blame for an error. When a person says ?I did (or supervised) this work,? there is no doubt as to who should answer for any errors or omissions.
If someone presents me with a completed design in which I had taken no previous part, I would not sign or seal the package. But what I may be willing to offer is to conduct a review, then to write a report of the results of my review, and to seal and sign that report. The Inspectors and other AHJ representatives on this Forum can comment on whether such a report would satisfy their requirements for a design to be performed ?under engineering supervision.?
Thanks for you good opinion. I think the following discussion is what you had in mind:
Every State has its own rules. But the basic ?truth? about PE seals is that they do not directly attest to the accuracy of the design, nor to code compliance. The drawings better have those things, or the engineer will likely be taken to task. But the engineer?s seal and signature are not saying ?I agree with this design.? What the engineer?s seal and signature mean is this: ?This work was done by me or under my supervision.? This can be translated to: ?Send the lawsuit to my office.? The real intent is to avoid any quibbling over who did what and who should take the blame for an error. When a person says ?I did (or supervised) this work,? there is no doubt as to who should answer for any errors or omissions.
If someone presents me with a completed design in which I had taken no previous part, I would not sign or seal the package. But what I may be willing to offer is to conduct a review, then to write a report of the results of my review, and to seal and sign that report. The Inspectors and other AHJ representatives on this Forum can comment on whether such a report would satisfy their requirements for a design to be performed ?under engineering supervision.?
Re: Plan stamping
I didn't mean to open an ethical debate on the review/stamping issue, and I do respect all opions on the matter. However in the states that do allow the review and stamping of plans can anyone give me a dollar amount that I should expect to pay...is per sheet or based on sq.ft, etc. Thank you.
I didn't mean to open an ethical debate on the review/stamping issue, and I do respect all opions on the matter. However in the states that do allow the review and stamping of plans can anyone give me a dollar amount that I should expect to pay...is per sheet or based on sq.ft, etc. Thank you.
Re: Plan stamping
I asked one of my GC's this same question and his answer was $5,000. What brought this up was him wanting me to bid on some design build projects. I told him I don't have an engineer employed. I would have no problem laying out a large retail store and bidding it, I just wouldn't want to pay an engineer to draw it up and then not get the job. If I could draw it and bid that would be fine, then if I got the job I would pay someone to draw it with my guidance of what I bid.
I asked one of my GC's this same question and his answer was $5,000. What brought this up was him wanting me to bid on some design build projects. I told him I don't have an engineer employed. I would have no problem laying out a large retail store and bidding it, I just wouldn't want to pay an engineer to draw it up and then not get the job. If I could draw it and bid that would be fine, then if I got the job I would pay someone to draw it with my guidance of what I bid.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Plan stamping
Keep in mind that what you might get from the PE that actually does have a seal on it might not even be a "real" drawing.
I have seen things like excel spreadsheets printed out with a seal on it that constituted the entire sealed drawing package.
Many times, only small parts of the drawings require any kind of seal, at least in my line of work. The project might have 100's of sheets of electrical drawings, and only a few have seals on them. Pretty typical in my line of work, so I do not see a PE sealed drawing as a big deal. It's just an added expense that every now and then you have to pay out to satisfy the PE mafia.
Years ago we did a project out in CA. Our electrical drawing package was almost 2 inches thick of D size drawings. The sealed electrical drawings were 2 D size sheets, one of them almost entirely consisting of notes, references to specs, and the PE firms advertising and legal warnings. The second sheet was a single line drawing showing the power feed into our systems MCC. It showed a single feed coming from one point into our MCC. That was it. I think we paid like $1500 for it.
The structural engineer charged us a lot more for the seal for the seismic calcs for bolting the electrical equipment to the floor and supporting the conduit and stuff. It was sort of funny, when it was all over and done with, what he designed was actually less sturdy than what we typically did anyway. After talking with him, he decided that he would change his design to reflect our standard, since he said it far exceeded any local requirements, and we would not have to change any of our equipment. He seemed like a decent guy to work with, although I think it would have been much cheaper to get him on board earlier on so he could see what we were already doing and base his drawings on that. But it was a learning experience.
I think the key is that if you need sealed drawings, get a guy on board ahead of time, and work with him to keep the cost of said drawings as low as possible. If he wants repeat business, he will be willing to work with you, and you can keep this cost to a minimum. If you wait until after the fact, you are at his mercy, plus they are understandably reluctant to get involved in someone else's mess.
Keep in mind that what you might get from the PE that actually does have a seal on it might not even be a "real" drawing.
I have seen things like excel spreadsheets printed out with a seal on it that constituted the entire sealed drawing package.
Many times, only small parts of the drawings require any kind of seal, at least in my line of work. The project might have 100's of sheets of electrical drawings, and only a few have seals on them. Pretty typical in my line of work, so I do not see a PE sealed drawing as a big deal. It's just an added expense that every now and then you have to pay out to satisfy the PE mafia.
Years ago we did a project out in CA. Our electrical drawing package was almost 2 inches thick of D size drawings. The sealed electrical drawings were 2 D size sheets, one of them almost entirely consisting of notes, references to specs, and the PE firms advertising and legal warnings. The second sheet was a single line drawing showing the power feed into our systems MCC. It showed a single feed coming from one point into our MCC. That was it. I think we paid like $1500 for it.
The structural engineer charged us a lot more for the seal for the seismic calcs for bolting the electrical equipment to the floor and supporting the conduit and stuff. It was sort of funny, when it was all over and done with, what he designed was actually less sturdy than what we typically did anyway. After talking with him, he decided that he would change his design to reflect our standard, since he said it far exceeded any local requirements, and we would not have to change any of our equipment. He seemed like a decent guy to work with, although I think it would have been much cheaper to get him on board earlier on so he could see what we were already doing and base his drawings on that. But it was a learning experience.
I think the key is that if you need sealed drawings, get a guy on board ahead of time, and work with him to keep the cost of said drawings as low as possible. If he wants repeat business, he will be willing to work with you, and you can keep this cost to a minimum. If you wait until after the fact, you are at his mercy, plus they are understandably reluctant to get involved in someone else's mess.
Re: Plan stamping
Typically you are already in agreement with the owner in principle that the job is yours when you do a design build because you are also value engineering the job at the same time.
It's kind of like an owner of a business ask you to come do some electrical work and he shows you a shell. Don't turn the job down, sell him on the one stop shopping theory. Its putting value in your company for your customers that you can take care of all their electrical needs "in house"
You should get an electrical engineer you feel comfortable with to develop a relationship for this purpose. You'll be surprised at how much work they throw your way also.
[ March 09, 2005, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: bigjohn67 ]
Typically you are already in agreement with the owner in principle that the job is yours when you do a design build because you are also value engineering the job at the same time.
It's kind of like an owner of a business ask you to come do some electrical work and he shows you a shell. Don't turn the job down, sell him on the one stop shopping theory. Its putting value in your company for your customers that you can take care of all their electrical needs "in house"
You should get an electrical engineer you feel comfortable with to develop a relationship for this purpose. You'll be surprised at how much work they throw your way also.
[ March 09, 2005, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: bigjohn67 ]
dan55
Member
- Location
- South Dakota
Re: Plan stamping
In my area in south dakota they work of a percentage of the electrical price. Sometimes that results in over engineered or designed jobs. I can't remember but i believe it is six percent.
In my area in south dakota they work of a percentage of the electrical price. Sometimes that results in over engineered or designed jobs. I can't remember but i believe it is six percent.
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