Plasma Arc circuit

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

topgroove

Member
Ok here's what I'm planning on doing. Mounting four welding rods standing up using a 15kv insulator as a base. I'll bend two of the rods forming a 1/4 inch air gap for a large DC welder. The air gap will have 120 voltsDC and a lot of amps sittin there waiting. Not enough volts there to start an arc. Than the other two welding rods I'll have bent just outside the smaller air gap with my 12,000 volt neon sign transformer leads attached. When I energize the neon transformer an arc will form accross the outside rods which will get the party started for the welding arc. From there I was thinking of using an ultrasonic humidifier to mist water directly into the plasma ball.

My big question is, do you think there's any chance of damaging my neon transformer. I only paid a $100 bucks for it but sure dont want to damage it. Also ... I have a really big 50kvar capasitor lying around, could I somehow add that to my doomsday machine to intensify the 12kv outside arc .

BTW I am a high voltage powerlineman so I have the proper rubber gloves and safety equipment.
 
I do not know enough of the physics that is applicable to this device you are describing to be able to say, one way or the other, whether there is a risk to the neon transformer. But I strongly suspect there is a serious risk of damaging more than just a transformer. And I don?t think any gloves or safety equipment will be enough to protect a person standing anywhere near this contraption, should it decide to blaze an arc in unexpected directions.

I am tempted to close this thread, not being willing to allow the membership to help you design a ?doomsday machine? that might end up causing an injury. But I will give you a chance to explain what you are doing, and why, and why you don?t see it as a dangerous endeavor. Also, if any member wants to chime in with an opinion, or with facts, regarding the safety issues involved, I want them to have the ability to do so.
 
i'm sure most of you here thing building something like this is extreamly dangerous, to me its simply a hobby of mine. i've built plenty of jacobs ladders and done a lot of stick welding. I have a hydrogen /oxegen micro torch I built in my shop. i've managed to run a 1 horsepower motor at idle using electrolysis to produce hydroxy gas or browns gas but producing large amounts of hydroxy uses way to much power to really make it practical . my goal is to use a plasma spark plug to expload water vapor. I guess most of the people here think something like this is completely rediculous and dangerous but they probebly think handling 13.2 kv 40 feet in the air with rubber gloves is crazy too.something I do everyday at work. oh well Telsa caught way more XXXX than I ever will.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The secondary of the neon transformer should be isolated from the primary, but is probably grounded to the case at the center point. So long as the neon isn't grounded it should be OK.
 
whillis said:
The secondary of the neon transformer should be isolated from the primary, but is probably grounded to the case at the center point. So long as the neon isn't grounded it should be OK.
Click to expand...
yes the secondary 12kv side af the neon transformer is isolated from 120 volt main which is of course grounded to the case. because i'm using separate electrodes for the 12kv and 120 volts my thinking was I wouldn't need several diodes to protect the 30 milliamp neon transformer from voltage bleedover. when your stick welding you have to touch your welding rod to your work to get the arc started, I want to use the neon transformer to create a primer arc for which the higher amp welding arc can form.
 
080126-1551 EST

First, an arc is an approximately constant voltage. This varies with pressure and limitedly with current.

For a discussion see
Fundamentals of Engineering Electronics, William G. Dow

You do not want to connect an arc to a voltage source. Rather your want a current source to supply the arc. This does not mean the current source has to be perfectly constant. What it does mean is that you need a high enough impedance in series with a voltage source to limit the arc current to a level near what you want.

With an adjacent spark discharge can you initiate an arc discharge between your electrodes depends on many factors. Why bother.

Arc lights have been initiated for years by bringing the electrodes together and pulling apart to form the arc.

To protect your neon transformer you probably need to do nothing, but you could add some series resistors on both sides. If one of your arc electrodes is near ground potential, then your maximum voltage anywhere between and including the electrodes relative to ground won't be a lot different than the maximum arc drop voltage.

I did work on drawn arc stud welders back in the late 60s. One idea I had at that time was to put a small tip on the stud end of a length for the desired gap. This would require very little of the available energy of the source to burn it away and upon vaporizing the arc would be formed at that gap. You could use that idea here.

On the safety of how you work with the arc others will have to tell you what to do.

.
 
top -
I don't have any comments on xfm damage or safety. What you are doing sound interesting - I'm just curious. This is similar to stuff we tried when we were kids, 45 - 50 years ago. I don't remember any neon ransformers, our HV source of choice was old oil burner xfms - some from the dump, and the furnace repairguy down the street would give us old ones along with the ceramic insulated electrodes. I think they would hit about 10kV.

Following is not safety advive: I can't understand why you would need voltage rated gloves. Are you really planning on reaching into the business end while it's operating? Why not just turn it off if it goes bad? Faceshield/welding hood sounds like a good idea though.

Curious about a few things:

1. Sounds like your planning on using mild steel main arcing rods. Won't they just burn back once the main arc starts. E6010 and 100A sort of burns away the rod - similar to if you were welding.

2. When you say, "expload water vapor", do you mean separate the water into O2 and H2? If you do, couple of questions:
a. The H2 and O2 are in a high energy atmosphere. Why wouldn't they just recombine?
b. Why is it you think that it will take less energy to disassociate the water with a, "plasma spark"" than with electrolysis?

Not picking at you - just curious about your science and reasoning.

cf
 
If someone asked this and I missed it, I apologize .....but what the heck is the point of this exercise? If it's self amusement, I have no problem at all with that.

If you are successful and don't post pictures of this (insert your own word here), I will campaign tirelessly to have you banned from this site.:cool:
 
topgroove said:
Ok here's what I'm planning on doing. Mounting four welding rods standing up using a 15kv insulator as a base. I'll bend two of the rods forming a 1/4 inch air gap for a large DC welder. The air gap will have 120 voltsDC and a lot of amps sittin there waiting. Not enough volts there to start an arc. Than the other two welding rods I'll have bent just outside the smaller air gap with my 12,000 volt neon sign transformer leads attached. When I energize the neon transformer an arc will form accross the outside rods which will get the party started for the welding arc. From there I was thinking of using an ultrasonic humidifier to mist water directly into the plasma ball.

My big question is, do you think there's any chance of damaging my neon transformer. I only paid a $100 bucks for it but sure dont want to damage it. Also ... I have a really big 50kvar capasitor lying around, could I somehow add that to my doomsday machine to intensify the 12kv outside arc .

BTW I am a high voltage powerlineman so I have the proper rubber gloves and safety equipment.
Click to expand...

this sounds like crazy fun..But like others what is the point..please let us know the results..maybe even little video if posible.
 
Cold Fusion said:
top -
I don't have any comments on xfm damage or safety. What you are doing sound interesting - I'm just curious. This is similar to stuff we tried when we were kids, 45 - 50 years ago. I don't remember any neon ransformers, our HV source of choice was old oil burner xfms - some from the dump, and the furnace repairguy down the street would give us old ones along with the ceramic insulated electrodes. I think they would hit about 10kV.

Following is not safety advive: I can't understand why you would need voltage rated gloves. Are you really planning on reaching into the business end while it's operating? Why not just turn it off if it goes bad? Faceshield/welding hood sounds like a good idea though.

Curious about a few things:

1. Sounds like your planning on using mild steel main arcing rods. Won't they just burn back once the main arc starts. E6010 and 100A sort of burns away the rod - similar to if you were welding.

2. When you say, "expload water vapor", do you mean separate the water into O2 and H2? If you do, couple of questions:
a. The H2 and O2 are in a high energy atmosphere. Why wouldn't they just recombine?
b. Why is it you think that it will take less energy to disassociate the water with a, "plasma spark"" than with electrolysis?

Not picking at you - just curious about your science and reasoning.

cf
Click to expand...

no your right no need to stick your hands near the arc... just added safety, thats all. this expirement is really simply proof of concept that's all. its not electrolysis at all really. directing a stream of water vapor at a ball of plasma is kinda like throwing water on a grease fire times a thousand. not only do you get an intense burst of light... you get a shock wave too. kinda like lightning and thunder.
 
topgroove said:
this expirement is really simply proof of concept that's all. .
Click to expand...
That's mostly what I was curious about:
What concept?
What is the science?
What do you expect to have happen?
What will you measure to tell if the proof of concept worked?

As sii says, just for grins - no science - is okay too. However, if you don't post pictures /tell us what happens, I'll side with sii - science/no science, successful or not :roll:

cf
 
Cold Fusion said:
That's mostly what I was curious about:
What concept?
What is the science?
What do you expect to have happen?
What will you measure to tell if the proof of concept worked?

As sii says, just for grins - no science - is okay too. However, if you don't post pictures /tell us what happens, I'll side with sii - science/no science, successful or not :roll:

cf
Click to expand...

if it works I promise to post a video or pictures of it . if it dosent I think i'll be out one $100 dollar neon transformer with a picture of the majic smoke coming out. the end goal would be to incorporated this idea to a spark plug and run a internal combustion engin on it. gas prices are on another wild ride again.
 
Carbon Arc Lamp Junior High Experiment

Carbon Arc Lamp Junior High Experiment

In the 1970's, I was in Junior High, and came across a book on with all kinds of electrical experiments that would make today?s litigious society cringe. (Pre-internet)
One experiment was designed to show the experimenter what was going on in the large ?Search-Lights? that one would typically see oscillating in front of a major entertainment event, that shine up into the night sky and attract attention for miles around.
I was curious, and built several successful models. (13 yrs old).
I extracted the cores of two ?D?-cell batters which are in essence CARBON.
I made two copper electrode holders, and supported them adjacent of each other, on wooden model frame. I used a mason jar full of TAP water in series with the 110 vac wall current supplied to the two opposing electrodes. Using thick leather gloves, I would advance the carbon electrodes toward each other and make contact, then draw them apart to create a continuous arc. If it did not work right away, I would add TABLE SALT to reduce the resistance of the tap water. (the mason jar of salt water was a current limiter ). I did not dream this up, it was in the textbook.
Once the arc was going it would run for 15 minutes until the carbon melted away enough to fail.
I am sure now, that I was probably exposed to very harmful UV rays, I am now surprised, that I am not blind, this would surely be the same as watching someone WELDING.
I did not electrocute myself, because I was educated enough to know, NOT to become ?in-line? with the 120 vac circuit.

Similar link http://members.misty.com/don/carbarc.html
 
I would go for the carbon 1/4" electrodes,those welding rods will burn away in a second.How long do you plan on running it at one time?Don`t forget about the welder`s cycle limit.when I was 12 yrs.old Imade a carbon arc torch out of my mothers tea kettle,(1200 watts of power),when the water boiled I dumped it out and put in more cold water.Sounds like fun.keep us posted
 
090126-1944 EST

topgroove:

I believe you expect to get more energy out than you put in. That won't work. Based on the law of conservation of energy.

There are inefficiencies when you disassociate hydrogen and oxygen from water. Thus, the energy put in to perform the separation is greater than energy produced when the hydrogen and oxygen recombine. You are probably better off using the first form of the energy.

Searching the Internet there are discussions that are certainly invalid if you can get to the basics of what is really being described.

As has been pointed out you need to use something for the electrodes that can tolerate the high temperature.

There is a cathode voltage drop, a plasma drop, and an anode drop. There is a lot of power dissipated at both the cathode and anode.

I think it can be stated absolutely that even if you could separate H and O with this scheme, then you would have a lot of wasted energy in heat. But first you need to come up with an explanation of what the mechanism is that would cause an arc to disassociate water into H and O.

The following site leaves out a great deal of information, but is probably fairly correct:
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/water/chemistryelectrolysis.html

I have to classify this one as fraud.
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm
I can put zinc in hydrochloric acid and get hydrogen and zinc chloride. Is this what these people are doing for the experiment?

.
 
A hard answer is not possible without looking at the complete circuit diagrams of both transformer and welder, but my gut tells me that damage to one or the other is quite likely.

1) The small DC voltage of the welder could push the transformer core into saturation, causing it to draw much greater than rated primary current.

2) The high voltage from the neon transformer could easily damage rectifiers or insulation in the welder, even though the transformer current is so small.

-Jon
 
090127-1149 EST

winnie:

I do not believe topgroove's basic idea will work. But if we assume it could, then I do not believe his mechanical configuration will cause the spark to initiate the arc.

However, I do not want to discourage him from thinking and experimenting with his idea. The first step is to prove there is some way to make an arc disassociate H and O from water. If that could be proven, then its time to study ways to generate the arc.

Can you use a low energy spark to initiate a higher energy spark or arc? Yes. This I did in 1957 on a project relating to an improved ignition system. At that time gasoline contained lead and compression ratios had increased to 12 to 1. Spark plugs became fouled rather quickly, low shunt resistance (10,000 ohms) in 10,000 miles. To initiate a spark with a low shunt resistance takes more initial energy or get the voltage high fast.

We went the route of a capacitor discharge system as a means to more rapidly raise the voltage. This reduced the energy in the spark to ignite the fuel air mixture. In turn under road load conditions, partial throttle, fuel economy was slightly reduced. To solve this problem I invented a means to use the initial spark to initiate a higher energy spark. The project was canceled because of the 1957 recession. However, I still consider the technique as proprietary.

.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top