plastic boxes and armor cable

[bill@usps06492]

My neighbor, Jim, just installed a hot tub and did all of the electrical, with alot of over the fence help.He used pvc for the boxes and raceways, but one thing he did, I told him he had to change, was a 120v/20a circuit in AC cable that he ran from his panel to a plastic pull box in the garage( from this point the circuit goes outside through 1"pvc to the tub).He thought that because you can run NM into a metal box that it is okay to run metal into a plastic box.I was taught that because there is no listed fitting for this type of connection and it breaks the ground continuity of the raceway that it cannot be done.He said that because the AC has a seperate insulated ground wire that is spliced with the other circuits ground wire and the AC is connected to the metal panel that it is bonded electrically to the ground.(I did verify this wih an ohmmeter).I have looked in the NEC to find something that deals with this issue, but I cannot come up with anything specific.Any ideas.There was no permit pulled because "as the homeowner I don't need one",Jim informed me after I told him that the inspector would make him change the cable. "No good deed goes unpunished!"

 

[websparky]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

was a 120v/20a circuit in AC cable that he ran from his panel to a plastic pull box in the garage............I was taught that because there is no listed fitting for this type of connection and it breaks the ground continuity of the raceway that it cannot be done.

I'm guessing it is MC not AC......if that is the case, the MC outer covering is not used for grounding and MC may be terminated in a plastic box. I would think as long as the thickness of the plastic box wall did not prohibit the tightening of the lock nut on the MC connector, you would be good to go!

[ September 01, 2003, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: websparky ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

See 314.3.
Don

 

[websparky]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

Doh!

You are correct as usual Don!

"Where internal bonding means are provided between all entries, nonmetallic boxes shall be permitted to be used with metal raceways or metal-armored cables."

 

[bill@usps06492]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

thanks Don, I was looking in art:210,250,300,&320

 

[Guest]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

Originally posted by bill@usps06492:
<snip>There was no permit pulled because "as the homeowner I don't need one<snip>

ALL jobs require a permit. There are a couple of exceptions in the building code (6' fence, 4' retaining wall, slab-on-grade concrete, etc.), but none in the electrical code.

ALL jobs beynod replacing a light bulb require a permit and inspections.

 

[hurk27]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

AWWT

ALL jobs require a permit.

This would depend on the laws of the state or local unit of goverment.
Here in indiana most area's dont require a permit if the job is under $500.00 and the state law allows home owners that are working on there own home to do so.
Look at (D)

IC 36-7-8-3
Establishment of building, heating, ventilating, electrical, plumbing, and sanitation standards; ordinances
Sec. 3. (a) The legislative body of a county having a county department of buildings or joint city-county building department may, by ordinance, adopt building, heating, ventilating, air conditioning, electrical, plumbing, and sanitation standards for unincorporated areas of the county. These standards take effect only on the legislative body's receipt of written approval from the fire prevention and building safety commission.
(b) An ordinance adopted under this section must be based on occupancy, and it applies to:
(1) the construction, alteration, equipment, use, occupancy, location, and maintenance of buildings, structures, and appurtenances that are on land or over water and are:
(A) erected after the ordinance takes effect; and
(B) if expressly provided by the ordinance, existing when the ordinance takes effect;
(2) conversions of buildings and structures, or parts of them, from one occupancy classification to another; and
(3) the movement or demolition of buildings, structures, and equipment for the operation of buildings and structures.
(c) The rules of the fire prevention and building safety commission are the minimum standards upon which ordinances adopted under this section must be based.
(d) An ordinance adopted under this section does not apply to private homes that are built by individuals and used for their own occupancy.

 

[russellroberts]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

Here in my little corner of Ga.,there are no electrical permits or inspections. If it's new construction,a building permit is required,but no inspections,with the exception of septic systems are done.

Ga. requires licensing of electrical,plumbing,hvac,low voltage,but not building contractors.

As you might imagine,the electrical installs around here are a free-for-all. :roll:


Russell

 

[goldstar]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

Don,

Regarding 314.3 and the exceptions, what methods are used to bond armored cables in non-metalic boxes ?

Thanks in advance,

Phil

 

[iwire]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

I would think that bonding bushings and bonding jumpers sized to the OCPD would do it.

How else could you do it?

Bob

 

[Guest]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

I would like to revise my answer to this:

If your state has adopted the NEC and if your state has electrical permits, there is almost no situation where an electrical job would be exempt from a permit. Sorry, I was previously aware that several states in the south have not adopted the NEC and electrical work is owners option, but it makes so little sense and so much time has passed that I failed to retrieve that from my memory archive.

Regardless of permits, the the NEC is written by the NFPA. The key phrase here is Fire Prevention. If you want to prevent fires it would behoove you to adhere to the NEC even when you are not bound by it.

I apologize for overstating the case for permits, but again if you are under the jurisdiction of the NEC you probably need a permit.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

goldstar,
I don't know why anyone would want to go to the trouble and expense to bond the metallic cables used with a nonmetallic box. It would be much more cost effective to just use a metallic box with any metallic wiring method.
Don

 

[george t. everett]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

Would MC cable be required to be bonded at both ends?

 

[goldstar]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

Don,

I agree with you. I can't come up with a scenario where someone would use plastic boxes with armored cable. However, 314.3 x 1 & 2 allows you to do this and I was just wondering what method is used to keep the EG continuous.
Bob (iwire) seemed to have a good method.

Regards,

Phil

 

[hbiss]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

I suppose you could use a bonding bushing if you can make it thread on the connector (those NM boxes are pretty thick) but I agree with Don.

We actually have had this problem when feeding NM raceway with receptacles along walls or under counters. Not much of a choice here. We terminated the AC cable in a metallic 1900 box and fed the raceway from it with either a piece of EMT or greenfield. An equipment ground wire was run in the EMT or greenfield and was bonded to the box with a ground screw.

 

[Guest]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

There was no permit pulled because "as the homeowner I don't need one",Jim informed me after I told him that the inspector would make him change the cable

Here's the basics of how my city enforces the requirement for permits:
Required Permits for Concord, CA USA

All new installations listed below require permits. Note this is not a complete list of all items which require permits. If your item is not listed, feel free to call the Building Division. Permits, if required for replacement items, are also indicated. The following list(s) contain information on required permits; however, all work, regardless of whether or not a permit is required, shall comply with the codes.

 

[russellroberts]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

Awwt,Georgia does adopt the NEC(2002 adopted in March of this year). But it's left up to the counties/cities to enforce. There are enforcement officials from the state licensing board,but their workload is huge,and they generally only react to complaints. I suspect this will only get worse with the State budget crunch.

There was an attemt a few years ago to start a building inspection.The sole county comissioner was in favor of it. He held a public forum and was soundly shouted down,hence no inspection/elec. permits yet.

Btw,there are those of us here who adhere to the NEC and it's getting better,slowly.

Russell

 

[hurk27]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

Awwt
I agree with you as for the NEC must be followed and in a jurisdiction where a permit is required yes you should obtain one.
What I was just letting you know (looks like you already do) is that there is still allot of places that don't have permits or require one when the job is under a certain amount, and here in Indiana the state even allow's for the homeowner to do his own work on his own house as I stated above with the law that allows for it.
But many jurisdiction's make the homeowner take a simple test before they can get a permit.

Now a question for the forum. If you just use a short piece of FMC to protect a romex let's say running through a kitchen cabnet to an outlet mounted in a plastic box, would it have to be bonded? or acording to 300.4 (C) the N/M only needs the proper support for the N/M cable and there is no need for the flex?

 

[cwsnsons]

Re: plastic boxes and armor cable

Pardon me for regressing a bit here, but back to the permiting issue. TN is under the NEC statewide, with some jurisdictions making some pretty obscure or tight ammendments. However, a lot of people do minor and sometimes major work without a permit/inspection. I was approached by a lady the other day about "redoing some of our electric". Seems the previous owners had done a lot of DIY work sans permits/inspections or electrical knowledge. Since they can get all that neat stuff at Lowes or Home Depot, they can do it themselves, right? Replacements of receps, lights etc. don't require a permit; but any new circuit or addition to a circuit is supposed to be inspected. Around here, the practical requirement for permiting is if you need to pull the meter (the utility will report the seal being broken) or new service. Most other work is done without permits/inspections. I actually had another tradesman laugh me to scorn for getting a permit and having inspected a detached garage, he would just run some UF to the house and tap in to the panel - permit free. I hate to get called in on these types of jobs. It's hard to explain to the owners why their little job is going to be so expensive, and with some of these, like this lady, where do I stop. Probably before I get started!

Chris