Please confirm my suspicion, the inspector should not have passed this.

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So, I just looked at a neighbors hvac installation. I believe they had failed the electrical twice for other reasons before the inspector passed it.
First failure was due to NMB routed in plastic conduit down the exterior of the home. So, they spiced it with THWN at the 90° junction as it penetrates the attic. Apparently, they used all black conductors because they used tape to relabel.
The second was to remove the bonding jumper.

Here's a picture of the sub panel they installed as a disconnect. The wires relabeled with white and green tape are feeding a 1ph branch circuit to the 15A/ 120v gas furnace. They are routed up the side of the house in plastic electrical conduit 20', and 90° into the attic. The 2 pole breaker is a 1ph branch circuit to the 25A/ 240v AC unit.

IMG_4039.JPG
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
They ran out of red wire??

is that black wire marked as single strand or did they pull it from a jacketed cable assembly?
the tape marking is crap, btw..
 

PaulMmn

Senior Member
Location
Union, KY, USA
Occupation
EIT - Engineer in Training, Lafayette College
I suspect the tape marking was added once The Inspector got a look inside the box... it's just folded around the conductors, not spiral wrapped.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Multiple issues:

1. The source has no neutral, so the EGC has to carry neutral current.
2. There should be a separate EGC accessory bus screwed to the box.
3. The afore-mentioned re-identified conductor is too small for this.

Fail!(n)
 
Multiple issues:

1. The source has no neutral, so the EGC has to carry neutral current.
2. There should be a separate EGC accessory bus screwed to the box.
3. The afore-mentioned re-identified conductor is too small for this.

Fail!(n)
Thank you! That's exactly what I told him. How the hell is this inspector allowing the EGC to serve as a current carrying conductor (neutral)? The metal box is not grounded.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Your eyes are better than these old ones
Same here, I do not see a connector. With that said, the whole installation is ridiculous and the inspector should be forced to use the picture for his personal Hall of Shame approvals.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
The panel neutral or ground bar appears to not be bonded,
I think you don't need a neutral but you need ground. IT would be no different than a fused disco.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Sloppy job, but would meet code if the 15 A breaker was eliminated. What does it feed, it and no neutral from supply is the violation.

per post #4 item list:
1. HVAC is likely an inverter type unit, there is NO neutral current or connection in the HVAC, typical of mini-splits, thus 25 A circuit OK assuming the 25 A is for disconnect use only.
2. The bus shown IS the box grounding bus, assuming the torx screw connects to the box, no neutral bus needed IF ya ditch the 15A breaker.
3. 15A breaker too big? However, if it is there, then 1 and 2 DO apply.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Same here, I do not see a connector. With that said, the whole installation is ridiculous and the inspector should be forced to use the picture for his personal Hall of Shame approvals.

LOL, I agree it looks like some of the DIY work you see on YouTube.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
You took the picture AFTER the $20 bill was removed.
Inspectors have to eat too :D
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Sloppy job, but would meet code if the 15 A breaker was eliminated. What does it feed, it and no neutral from supply is the violation.
A lot of non-compliant work would meet code if the violations were eliminated. :unsure:

per post #4 item list:
1. HVAC is likely an inverter type unit, there is NO neutral current or connection in the HVAC, typical of mini-splits, thus 25 A circuit OK assuming the 25 A is for disconnect use only.
No ;problem there.

2. The bus shown IS the box grounding bus, assuming the torx screw connects to the box, no neutral bus needed IF ya ditch the 15A breaker.
No, that's the neutral bus for use other than as main disco; a separate accessory grounding bus is available. See what Sierra just posted above.

3. 15A breaker too big? However, if it is there, then 1 and 2 DO apply.
Too big for . . . ?
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Sad. Just sad. Incompetent contractor and inspector. I would recommend you tell your neighbor that he should not accept this as it is unsafe.
And I wonder about that splice you mention where it goes into the attic. Lord knows how that was done.
 

norcal

Senior Member
In addition to all the issues already mentioned, Siemens breakers in a SQ D Homeline panel is not good either.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Multiple issues:

1. The source has no neutral, so the EGC has to carry neutral current.
2. There should be a separate EGC accessory bus screwed to the box.
3. The afore-mentioned re-identified conductor is too small for this.

Fail!(n)

Your right that's all screwed up. I can't believe an electrician ( I mean an EC) would do this type of work so I'm thinking that it's a homeowner install.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
They ran out of red wire??

is that black wire marked as single strand or did they pull it from a jacketed cable assembly?
the tape marking is crap, btw..
Tape marking doesn't matter how crappy it is - not allowed at all on the 20 amp single pole circuit in this case as it is individual conductors in raceway and they can only be "re-identified" if larger than 6 AWG in such application. The incoming feeder appears to be NM cable and would be allowed there, but unless it is service conductor (which can't be NM cable anyway) it needs an additional grounded conductor in the cable in which case there would likely be no need to mark any of the feeder conductors.
 
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