plug-in tester won't trip arc fault breakers..

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pilgrimtravler

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I have arc fault breakers on several bedrooms that have the old, ungrounded wiring. Using plug-in testers, they fail to trip on arc fault.

Is it not possible to trip them on arc fault from a plug in tester?

Do they work under "real" arc fault?


Thank you very much.
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
electricguy61 said:
I own this one. Is this not a plug-in arc fault tester?

http://www.professionalequipment.com/ideal-suretest-circuit-analyzer-61-165/circuit-testers/
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No.
From the UL White Book:

OUTLET CIRCUIT TESTERS (QCYU)
GENERAL
This category covers portable devices with fixed attachment plug blades, or probes attached to flexible leads, used to indicate various wiring conditions in 15 or 20 A branch circuits by a pattern of lights or other similar means along with markings or instructions to identify the probable wiring conditions which cannot be determined by the tester. The devices may include provisions for checking the functions of a ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) connected to the branch circuit, or for indicating that a branch circuit is connected to an arc-fault circuit interrupter
(AFCI).
AFCI indicators operate by producing a waveform similar to an arc fault. Since these devices cannot produce an actual arc fault, an AFCI indicator may not trip every AFCI. AFCI indicators are provided with markings or instructions that state the following or equivalent: ‘‘ CAUTION: AFCIs recognize characteristics unique to arcing, and AFCI indicators produce characteristics that mimic some forms of arcing. Therefore the indicator may provide a false indication that the AFCI is not functioning properly. If this occurs, recheck the operation of the AFCI using the test and reset buttons. The AFCI button test function will demonstrate proper operation.’’
These devices are not intended for use as comprehensive diagnostic instruments.
RELATED PRODUCTS Ground-continuity-indicating devices constructed integral with cordconnector bodies for use on construction sites are covered under Attachment Plugs, Fuseless (AXUT) as ‘‘cord-connector bodies.’’​
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
For additional information, see Electrical Equipment for Use in Ordinary Locations (AALZ).
REQUIREMENTS
The basic standard used to investigate products in this category is UL 1436, ‘‘Outlet Circuit Testers.’’
UL MARK
The Listing Mark of Underwriters Laboratories Inc. on the product, or the UL symbol on the product and the Listing Mark on the smallest unit container in which the product is packaged, is the only method provided by UL to identify products manufactured under its Listing and Follow-Up Service.
The Listing Mark for these products includes the UL symbol (as illustrated in the Introduction of this Directory) together with the word ‘‘LISTED,’’ a control number, and the product name ‘‘Circuit Tester.’’
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Last edited:
celtic

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
electricguy61 said:
480sparky: you have 12K postings, so I'm sure you're more knowledgeable than me, but I don't see how the given article says there is no such thing as a plug in arc fault tester. Please point me in the right direction.

http://www.idealindustries.com/medi...uctions/nd-5481-6_61-164-165_instructions.pdf
Click to expand...


Guy..

AFCI indicators operate by producing a waveform similar to an arc fault. Since these devices cannot produce an actual arc fault, an AFCI indicator may not trip every AFCI. AFCI indicators are provided with markings or instructions that state the following or equivalent: ?? CAUTION: AFCIs recognize characteristics unique to arcing, and AFCI indicators produce characteristics that mimic some forms of arcing. Therefore the indicator may provide a false indication that the AFCI is not functioning properly. If this occurs, recheck the operation of the AFCI using the test and reset buttons. The AFCI button test function will demonstrate proper operation.??
These devices are not intended for use as comprehensive diagnostic instruments.
Click to expand...



Second paragraph from 480's quote.
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
electricguy61 said:
480sparky: you have 12K postings, so I'm sure you're more knowledgeable than me, but I don't see how the given article says there is no such thing as a plug in arc fault tester. Please point me in the right direction.

http://www.idealindustries.com/medi...uctions/nd-5481-6_61-164-165_instructions.pdf
Click to expand...

From your instructions:

AFCI Test Button​

Depressing this button displays the AFCI main menu. Two tests can be performed in this menu: AFCI and NEUT. The AFCI tests Arc Fault Circuit Interrupting devices by creating a 106-141 amp short-duration arc between the hot and neutral conductors per UL1436
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Given this, how do you test hot to ground, and neutral to ground?​




Now go to UL 1436:​



Outlet Circuit Testers and Similar Indicating Devices​



UL 1436​



1 Scope​


1.1 These requirements apply to outlet circuit testers, including screwdriver and pen-style voltage presence indicators, for use on 15-, 20-, and 30-A, 3-wire, 125-, 250-, 277-, 480-, or 600-V receptacles, ground-fault circuit-interrupter testers and arc-fault circuit-interrupter indicators for use on 15- and 20-A, 3-wire, 125-V receptacles, and similar indicating devices that are:​
a) Intended to be connected to the receptacle for a period of time only as long as is necessary to note the indicated pattern of lights or other similar indicating means, and
​
​

b) Not intended to be a comprehensive instrument or to determine the quality of the grounding circuit.
​
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electricguy61

electricguy61

Senior Member
Location
Remotely running business in Bay Area, CA from Med
Features & Applications:
The IDEAL? SureTest™ electrical circuit analyzer with arc fault (AFCI) and ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) detects arcing faults in electrical circuits that could cause fires. The arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) reduces the risk of fire beyond the scope of conventional fuses and circuit breakers. The ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) identifies problems common to electrical circuits that can cause electrical shocks.
Features:

  • Tests arc fault circuit interruptions (AFCI) for proper operation
  • Tests ground fault circuit interruptions (GFCI) for proper operation
  • True RMS measures voltage drop without interruption to equipment
  • Measures voltage drop under 12, 15 and 20-amp load
  • Indentifies proper wiring 3 in wire receptacles
  • Identifies false (bootleg) grounds
  • Includes carrying case
  • Includes 1 ft. extension cord
  • Adds a super-bright OLED display
  • 85-265 VAC
  • Shared Neutral Test
Applications:

  • Line voltage
  • Peak voltage
  • Frequency
  • Ground impedance
  • Ground-neutral voltage
  • Hot & neutral conductor impedances

Here's what the manual says about testing ground to neutral, etc:

AFCI Test Button
Depressing this button displays the AFCI main menu. Two tests
can be performed in this menu: AFCI and NEUT. The AFCI
tests Arc Fault Circuit Interrupting devices by creating a 106-141
amp short-duration arc between the hot and neutral conductors
per UL1436. The NEUT tests for a Shared Neutral or falsely grounded neutral conductor, which causes AFCI breakers to nuisance trip with normal loads. This test applies 300mA between hot and neutral to ensure that the AFCI breaker does not trip.

As far as testing hot to ground, would not hot to neutral be the same thing electrically?

This tester has been marketed as an "AFCI tester". Have I been sold a bill of goods?
 
Last edited:
Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
The tester itself cannot generate an actual Arc Fault. It simulates the Arc Fault.
The industry may call them testers, the NRTLs call them indicators.

Those indicators will not operate on all AFCIs and may not operate on two different breakers of the same manufacturer. That is the reason the NRTLs state the only method they recognize for testing the AFCI, is to use the test button that comes with the AFCI device.

The same holds true for GFCI devices as well.
 
ELA

ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
electricguy61 said:
Features & Applications:

This tester has been marketed as an "AFCI tester". Have I been sold a bill of goods?
Click to expand...

No you have not. Like any more complicated test instrument it takes a knowledge of how to use it properly, knowing its limitations and properly interpreting what its outputs are telling you.

I have built my own AFCI -lab environment tester (admittedly crude but taught me a lot about the devices and that was my intent in building it).
I made several posts on this subject at that time if you care to read them.

What the others have quoted is certainly true in terms of how UL views these products. Yet the tester you have is a true tester. That does not say that it will be 100% if not properly applied and it does have usage limitations that must be observed.

Many times when an AFCI tester will not trip the device under test it can be due to the impedance of the lines between the AFCI breaker and where the tester is applied in the circuit.
It is debatable as to whether or not a true electrical arc will be detected by all manufacturers AFCI breakers themselves if the line impedance to the fault location gets high enough.

One thing I can tell you directly is that the internal test button on the device itself does not test using a true arc signature. If I were wanting to know for sure if a circuit was protected at the extreme ends of the run how would you do this using the test button?

The unit you bought is far from perfect but a valuable tester none the less.
You have to understand how to use it and interpret correctly what it can or cannot tell you.
 
electricguy61

electricguy61

Senior Member
Location
Remotely running business in Bay Area, CA from Med
First: I appreciate all the comments here, even the sarcastic ones. I'm not thin skinned (come to think of it, I'm not skinny at all)

Second: I believe AFCI's were foisted upon the industry by the manufacturer's. I've had a two jobs where I never could find the problem with the circuit, even after using the Ideal tester and megging. Would you like to guess as to how I remedied the problem:grin:?

Third: I appreciate the poster that pointed out that even the test button on the AFCI breaker does not actually create an arc fault. So if I understand correctly, we have breakers that we cannot test unless we use the tester shown above (I guess the moderator deleted that post, but it was a piece of wire)?

What a croc!
 
R

rt66electric

Senior Member
Location
Oklahoma
use your wiggy??

use your wiggy??

If you are in a pinch use you wiggy>> Using your wiggy from H-grnd will trip a gfi or a afci.. I found this out the hard way whiloe troubleshooting.
 
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