Plumbing related

[Esthy]

I need your help. For unknown reasons I cannot log in the plumbing forum. I an dealing with a General inspector from the city in several items related to electrical upgrades, gas upgrades and a situation with a vent stack. as this inspector is a "general" he is not well versed in specifics. AND, I need your help in "wording" with him (you know that my English sucks)

I questioned an electrical and gas upgradeds made from someone else that was approved by this inspector, I questioned him and the city didn't have another alternative that backtrack and redo the entire situation.

So, I questioned a vent stack that is located between 2 mobile homes. That vent stack is too short and residents of those 2 mobile homes, specially in summer, cannot open their bedroom windows and those gases leak into ... (sewer gases can be hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, methane, esters, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides)

I know that you don't deal with plumbing, but please help me with the wording as this inspector is disappointed with me as he had to backtracked in the gas and electric.

He is stating that this sewer stack is "grandfathered" as it is in this way for the last 20 years. I don't find the wording to tell him that "ANY grandfathered hazards has to be corrected" and that stack (the black pipe in the photo) needs to be raised at least 2', see how close is to the bedroom windows. It is ok if this stack is on the top of the home but not on the side.

Can you help with the wording?

 

[ptonsparky]

You run into some real deals. I have never seen an installation like this nor do I understand why this is needed if the plumbing is done correctly in each MH. Granted I never looked, but HS, what Cluster F.

I can make stuff run down hill and know payday is on Friday but otherwise I am not a plumber

 

[Esthy]

What is "HS, what Cluster F"

All mobile parks have their sewer system and the mobile homes have their own, so a mobile home comes into the park and hook up. Beside a good draining system the vents have to be far away horizontally and vertically to avoid gases. Because this inspector is pi...off, he is telling me that it is "grandfathered".

I am writing again to the city but I cannot find the technically words to say that an hazards must be corrected regarding grandfathering or not. As I said above the city had to ordered a "redo" on the gas and electrical issue after it passed inspection.

"You run into some real deals", you are right, the problem is that I have too many licenses and I have no other choice that to put my nose into. See photo, I blackened for obvious reasons, I have strong accent/vocabulary but I don't think with accent, but many times I have difficulty in communicating. Old parakeet never learn to talk ..

I am a not a yes man and this is one of the many times I challenged (right word?) inspectors in VA, WA and AZ but at the end we respect each other.

 

[ptonsparky]

Hint: Don't use HS or CF in your correspondence.

"Holey Smokes" and "Cluster Fix" are close enough for polite company.

 

[kwired]

Seems it should be supported by something more mechanically sound then it is. Add a couple more feet to the height and things only will get worse, at least here where the wind does blow at least 300 out of 365 days a year.

 

[JFletcher]

You run into some real deals. I have never seen an installation like this nor do I understand why this is needed if the plumbing is done correctly in each MH. Granted I never looked, but HS, what Cluster F.

I can make stuff run down hill and know payday is on Friday but otherwise I am not a plumber

That makes two of us.

Raising the vent stack a few feet will make no appreciable difference in gasses being noticeable, nor reducing their concentration. H2S is detectable by the nose at like half a part per billion. You're not going to reach LEL concentrations, but the odors are going to be objectionable while there is a straight stack sans P/S trap on a main waste line. Is their waste going to city sewer or a septic tank/field?

I suppose that vent *could* be a vacuum break only, to keep from siphoning out the water in traps when the septic tank is drained, and is not operating properly, but that is a wag (wild a** guess).

I heard a long time ago a saying, which is completely wrong, in waste water treatment: the solution to pollution is dilution. In this case, the MH owners may be able to reduce to gasses by running more water, tho it's only a stop-gap measure to the proper fix, which they nor the park owner are going to want to pay for.

eta: I realize the vents on top of houses are susceptible to positive pressure and venting, but they are mainly siphon breaks to keep you from sucking the water out of your traps when you flush a toilet, use a sink, etc. Maybe going up another 10' on the stack would work...

 

[Esthy]

Ok, I know that as I talk too much I write too much too, and I always confuse things out. If the windows are open, specially in hot days, the "smell of gases/sewer" enter the house and that is not acceptable. Dealing with the inspector to give notice to the owner for the correction, the inspector calls this situation a "grandfather situation" and In my opinion, any hazard is NOT grandfathered. He tried with the same with the gas meter and with the electrical "repair" BUT I questioned and the city agreed to REDO. Of course, this inspector is P.. off, but I don't care and never care for incompetent inspectors, inspectors that are now "general inspectors" and have very limited knowledge of electrical. plumbing and mechanical.

Attached is the gas meter photo, see how the flex is stressed out where is connected to the outlet and it over time will leak and will cause explosion, is that a grandfathered too? This is the same MHP that I posted in another post the electrical and that is not grandfathered neither. They are coming to meet with me and I want to have the right wording of: Hazards are not grandfathered!

That vent stack has to be raised and has to has better support.

Next post I will post the electrical again, I know that some of you don't agreed with me, but I saw and see too many fires caused by incompetent workers and inspectors and I have probe of that.

 

[Esthy]

Hello kwired, I just notice that you have posted over 30,000 posts, whoa! You are a good mentor. Are you the one with more posts? Reading all the posts in this forum give the readers a lot of "free training" and that is priceless! This forum has at least 1,000 years of experience, maybe someone can take the time and multiplied the members by the hours and find how many years of experience really this forum offer.

 

[Smart $]

eta: I realize the vents on top of houses are susceptible to positive pressure and venting, but they are mainly siphon breaks to keep you from sucking the water out of your traps when you flush a toilet, use a sink, etc. Maybe going up another 10' on the stack would work...

On the first part, I have to ask if you know why p/s traps are installed in drain lines in the first place? Vents may be a siphon break, but there's a reason for the location of their (i.e roof stacks) opening to atmospheric air being at least 2' higher than anything within a 10' radius*.


*Requirements vary by jurisdiction.

 

[JFletcher]

On the first part, I have to ask if you know why p/s traps are installed in drain lines in the first place? Vents may be a siphon break, but there's a reason for the location of their (i.e roof stacks) opening to atmospheric air being at least 2' higher than anything within a 10' radius*.


*Requirements vary by jurisdiction.

Plumbing drain vents are for allowing air to be sucked into a system when you, say, flush a toilet. If there is no venting, the water going down the drain can create a vacuum on the entire system, which can suck out the water in sink and tub p-traps, and then allow sewer gasses to enter a dwelling.

Vent pipes here are located on the roofs of structures (houses), but they are not always at the high point, and typically there is roofline nearby and higher than the vent stack.

I mistyped my reply earlier in that there are no p or s traps in a vent stack, I meant the drain system in general. A trap in a vent pipe negates its purpose.

 

[kwired]

I have a septic system as I am not within any city or village waste water area.

I have a toilet in my shop that I keep neglecting to repair, but I am pretty sure has a bad seal between toilet and the plumbing system, not bad enough that you ever see any water leakage from under the toilet, but once in a while there is sewer gas in that room. The only other sewer connection in that room is a sink, and the trap is always full so the gas can't be coming through that drain. I think it is change in atmospheric pressure that causes the gas to be pushed into the room. The shop bathroom (the only room in the building with any plumbing) unfortunately doesn't have a vent like it probably should. There isn't much of a siphon problem when flushing toilet though because the run to the septic tank is probably only 20-25 feet max.

My point here is I think the vents on plumbing systems not only are there to prevent siphoning water from traps, but also to equalize pressure in the system when atmospheric pressure changes, so they will "inhale" as well as "exhale" at times.

 

[Smart $]

Plumbing drain vents are for allowing air to be sucked into a system when you, say, flush a toilet. If there is no venting, the water going down the drain can create a vacuum on the entire system, which can suck out the water in sink and tub p-traps, and then allow sewer gasses to enter a dwelling.

Exactly... but sewer gasses are still expelled from the vent during non-drain situations

Vent pipes here are located on the roofs of structures (houses), but they are not always at the high point, and typically there is roofline nearby and higher than the vent stack.
...

As I said, vent stack height requirements vary by jurisdiction. In many jurisdictions, it is simply 2' above roof penetration. In some jurisdictions it can be as little as 6".

 

[Esthy]

See note a) it is what I am referring to the inspector, but again, any hazards are never, in my opinion, grandfathered



Plumbing Code Citations for Plumbing Vent or Vent Stack Clearance Distances

Quoting the IRC model plumbing code

12.4 VENT TERMINALS

12.4.1 Extension Above Roofs

Vent pipes shall terminate not less than 6 inches above the roof, measured from the highest point where the vent intersects the roof. EXCEPTION: Where a roof is used for any purpose other than weather protection, vents shall extend at least 7 feet above the roof and shall be properly supported.
12.4.4 Location of Vent Terminal

a. Vent terminals shall not be located where vapors can enter the building.

b. No vent terminal shall be located directly beneath any door, window, or other ventilating opening of a building or of another building, nor shall any such vent terminal be within 10 feet horizontally of such opening unless it is at least 2 feet above the top of such opening.


P3103.5 Location of Vent Terminal IRC 2012

An open vent terminal from a drainage system shall not be located less than 4 feet (1219 mm) directly beneath any door, openable window, or other air intake opening of the building or of an adjacent building, nor shall any such vent terminal be within 10 feet (3048 mm) horizontally of such an opening unless it is not less than 3 feet (914 mm) above the top of such opening

 

[mwm1752]

Looking at the site it may appear that the tank was installed prior to moving mobile homes in -- is this a rental property? most likely the placement of the homes is a violation & the real solution would be to remove them -- not unusual for a landlord to put items where they should not for extra profit -- Is this a certain life safety issue? be careful what you ask for there may be people evicted or an angry landlord -- just another concept to think about.

 

[ptonsparky]

Your opinion vs AHJ opinion.

You are going to need more help than what those from an electrical forum can do.

 

[kwired]

Looking at the site it may appear that the tank was installed prior to moving mobile homes in -- is this a rental property? most likely the placement of the homes is a violation & the real solution would be to remove them -- not unusual for a landlord to put items where they should not for extra profit -- Is this a certain life safety issue? be careful what you ask for there may be people evicted or an angry landlord -- just another concept to think about.

Good point, "grandfathered" may mean it was compliant when the vent was installed. If inspector digs deeper and determines the mobile homes were brought in later and maybe not permitted/inspected as they should have been, it may open another can of worms.

 

[Esthy]

A Tube and Knob is grandfathered, BUT if it is in a hazard condition ... will you leave it in that way? There are several vent stacks in the park and this is the only one that is near to windows and shorter.

 

[gadfly56]

A Tube and Knob is grandfathered, BUT if it is in a hazard condition ... will you leave it in that way? There are several vent stacks in the park and this is the only one that is near to windows and shorter.

Properly installed knob and tube should not be "in a hazard condition" unless someone did something non-compliant later on, like fill the wall cavities with blown-in insulation.

It looks like you might have a violation of P3103.5 and the vent should be extended to reach above the windows. That may lead to some support issues for the the stack, but that's a different can of worms. If the smell is sufficiently irksome, someone might consider extending the stack above the minimum required in order to abate the nuisance.

 

[kwired]

If the smell is sufficiently irksome, someone might consider extending the stack above the minimum required in order to abate the nuisance.

Something tells me the landlord doesn't want to do it, therefore the attempt to try to have an inspector make them do it, or something sort of along those lines.

Something also tells me if the smell is sufficiently irksome that raising it two more feet won't improve it all that much.

 

[gadfly56]

Something tells me the landlord doesn't want to do it, therefore the attempt to try to have an inspector make them do it, or something sort of along those lines.

Something also tells me if the smell is sufficiently irksome that raising it two more feet won't improve it all that much.

Certainly possible, but depending on site conditions and prevailing winds, it's surprising what a couple of feet can do with regard to carrying away smoke/stink. At the very least, the landlord could be compelled to go 3 feet above the windows.