Poco service drop size disagreement 200a residential Upstate NY

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newservice

Senior Member
Apologies this is the NEC forum, but not sure where to post this. So I did a 100-200a service upgrade, contacted National Grid for a service order request and also a planner visit, as this is procedure when you change either the drop or the point of attachment. Looking at the drop it was obviously undersized even for 100a and original 1960 equipment, hence I requested the planner to visit and confirm the order to replace the drop with one adequate for the 200a service. By the way, the load calc clearly required 200a, 4000sf and electric range, an office 100a panel, addition had baseboard heat (larger than )AC, and a 60 breaker hot tub,..to name a few.
The Planner did visit and order the drop to be upgraded. Work was completed and inspected by the inspector I’ve used for 25 years.

The Line crew showed up ,with nobody there ,and changed the taps, sealed the meter, and ….left the old drop.

I complained to the Grid job “ owner” representative and said the Customer was aware, and I called the Planner, who was also upset as to why they would not comply with what she had ordered . She said it was not only very undersized, but an older brittle insulation type they seek to replace anyway. Planner reported it to her supervisor, who contacted the Line supervisor.
And that’s where it stood for a week. I then contact the rep, who said the Line sent someone to look, and reported it does NOT need to be changed.
In the past when I reach an impass like this I’ve had the Customer threaten to call the Public Service Commission, and that always worked. Apparently that is quickly becoming my last recourse.
This is more venting than question, but has anyone had similar experiences?
 

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they can pretty much do what they want....have seen larger service upgrades than that where the power company did not change the drop.
 
newservice said:
Yes, voltage drop. And that their own engineering department can’t seem to sway the line department.
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What is the nominal voltage present? If it voltage present specs within the range the POCO says is adequate little will be done.
NESC vs NEC wire sizes are very different.
 
Sell the customer on a home energy monitor.

If they actually see excessive voltage drop, use that to push the power company.

But if they are like most homes, their actual usage will be well below the NEC calculated usage.

I have a 100A service. My article 220 calculated demand is north of 120A.

I don't think I've ever exceeded 50 A of consumption in the few years I've had an energy monitor.
 
newservice said:
Yes, voltage drop. And that their own engineering department can’t seem to sway the line department.
Click to expand...
In cases like this I've seen the POCO be reactive instead of proactive. They'll wait until there is actually a provable problem and react to that before they'll change the drop. So if you can prove that the drop is causing a massive amount of voltage drop which is having a devastating affect on the building's equipment they may upgrade the conductor size.
 
Question for the OP: You did a load calc ( which exceeded 100 A), and you upgraded the main panel and service to 200A.

1) Did the customer have existing problems or symptoms related to the service drop size?

2) Did you add any new loads, or simply upgrade the hardware handling the existing loads?

3) Does the customer anticipate adding new loads?

As I was trying to describe a couple of posts back, the Article 220 calculation is very conservative for residential services. If the only issue is that the service drop is too small for the article 220 number, then let it go.

But if there are real evident problems caused by the too small service drop, then you should use the problems to push the POCO to fix things.
 
newservice said:
By the way, the load calc clearly required 200a, 4000sf and electric range, an office 100a panel, addition had baseboard heat (larger than )AC, and a 60 breaker hot tub,..to name a few.
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All you can do is create a paper trail that shows you notified them of the load calculation, certified mail and keep a record of dates and times.
Probably not a big deal for residential but I have seen the POCO go after more than a few commercial / industrial customers to recover costs for a transformer replacement.
 
winnie said:
Question for the OP: You did a load calc ( which exceeded 100 A), and you upgraded the main panel and service to 200A.

1) Did the customer have existing problems or symptoms related to the service drop size?

2) Did you add any new loads, or simply upgrade the hardware handling the existing loads?

3) Does the customer anticipate adding new loads?

As I was trying to describe a couple of posts back, the Article 220 calculation is very conservative for residential services. If the only issue is that the service drop is too small for the article 220 number, then let it go.

But if there are real evident problems caused by the too small service drop, then you should use the problems to push the POCO to fix things.
Click to expand...
I hear you but can’t wrap my head around the “ it doesn’t matter” argument when the engineering department at the poco is at odds with the line department. The eng said it’s just too old, too small, “too stiff” she said, ( it’s smaller than what they use NOW for 100a) and no longer compliant.
Look let’s face it. They went out with an order to change it, nobody was there to object, they changed out my temp taps and sealed the meter and left. Probly lied on their time and materials sheet, closed out the order. Now they got caught and they’re gonna double down and be difficult just because they can.
To say “ there IS no spec that utilities follow on drop sizes, I find that totally unbelievable. There has to be. I was told it’s the NESC, but can’t find it..
 
newservice said:
I hear you but can’t wrap my head around the “ it doesn’t matter” argument when the engineering department at the poco is at odds with the line department. The eng said it’s just too old, too small, “too stiff” she said, ( it’s smaller than what they use NOW for 100a) and no longer compliant.
Look let’s face it. They went out with an order to change it, nobody was there to object, they changed out my temp taps and sealed the meter and left. Probly lied on their time and materials sheet, closed out the order. Now they got caught and they’re gonna double down and be difficult just because they can.
To say “ there IS no spec that utilities follow on drop sizes, I find that totally unbelievable. There has to be. I was told it’s the NESC, but can’t find it..
Click to expand...
Linemen are an odd bunch. In my experience, 1/3 of them are cool, and the other 2/3 are grumpy miserable A-holes. You probably got the latter and "we're not listening to those idiots in the office...." Hopefully the engineering dept will notify someone who can do something that someone isnt following procedures.
 
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