PoCo unresponse to my presence...

[Open Neutral]

So a local sysadmin posted a query elsewhere about a wiring problem in her house.
Some lamps burned out instantly and a HVAC unit trips on power fault then smokes itself.
It was to me, clearly a Open Neutral? somewhere......

I told her what I suspected and suggested she call PEPCO asap, as well as her remodeling contractor. And unplug all the computers/TV's etc.

PEPCO came out, but without entering the house, declared it was not their fault. How can they be sure of that? I always thought they owned issues through the meter can and up to the main disconnect.

Not true?

 

[cadpoint]

Somethings can't be answered on the internet!

Of course it's not their problem no one was there to put their nose into it!

She needs to stop wasting time and get a professional in there!

 

[kwired]

So a local sysadmin posted a query elsewhere about a wiring problem in her house.
Some lamps burned out instantly and a HVAC unit trips on power fault then smokes itself.
It was to me, clearly a Open Neutral? somewhere......

I told her what I suspected and suggested she call PEPCO asap, as well as her remodeling contractor. And unplug all the computers/TV's etc.

PEPCO came out, but without entering the house, declared it was not their fault. How can they be sure of that? I always thought they owned issues through the meter can and up to the main disconnect.

Not true?

Sounds like it was an open neutral somewhere, did you verify it was upstream from service equipment? If not, it is possible they verified it was not upstream.

Connect a reasonably heavy 120 volt load at the service equipment and check voltages. A 1500 watt heat gun works great and is maybe something you typically carry in your work vehicle.

Many POCO will not test anything past the meter socket, can't tell you for certain what yours will do.

 

[Open Neutral]

Many POCO will not test anything past the meter socket, can't tell you for certain what yours will do.

OK, thanks. I've had them ask to retorque the AL feeders into the main at my house; this while swapping out the meter.

I'll ask if they pulled the meter while she was out....12:00 12:00 12:00

 

[Tony S]

What tests were carried out by the OP to confirm the suspected open neutral fault?
If I was to report such a fault to a UK DNO (district network operator) our equivalent of a POCO they would be obliged to act when evidence was presented to them.They are notorious for trying to shift the blame, I take it that in the US they are just as slippery.
I?ve been fortunate that in my 40 years in the trade I?ve only called them out to a domestic fault once, the unfortunate part, it was my own house. They were on site within 20 minutes. It was a high resistance OH line tap causing the fault.
Suspecting a fault doesn?t prove anything, hard facts get results.

 

[kwired]

Suspecting a fault doesn?t prove anything, hard facts get results.

Exactly, and it isn't that hard to determine if there is an open neutral ahead of service equipment, all it takes is a little loading and measuring, and understanding what the measurements mean. From the description in OP I don't think he even set foot on the property though. Still sounds like an open neutral, but not clear as to where to find it without further investigation - POCO may have showed up and correctly determined it was not on their side of things. They do not necessarily have to pull the meter either to determine that.

 

[al hildenbrand]

PEPCO came out, but without entering the house, declared it was not their fault. How can they be sure of that? I always thought they owned issues through the meter can and up to the main disconnect.

Not true?

Your question goes to the customer service policy of your local power company. Power companies are very individual in what they will or will not accept as what "they own." The National Electrical Code does not apply to the power company in this matter. The only way to answer your question is to learn from that one local power company that is serving that particular customer what their policy is.

In my metropolitan area, the power company "owning" ends in the Service Point connection between the Service Drop or Service Lateral conductors and the load side of the Service Point. (If that statement isn't clear, go to Article 100 Definitions of the NEC).

If there are no voltage swings at the Service Point, most power companies stop looking and tell the customer to get an electrician, in my opinion.

 

[Open Neutral]

From the description in OP I don't think he even set foot on the property though. Still sounds like an open neutral, but not clear as to where to find it without further investigation - POCO may have showed up and correctly determined it was not on their side of things. They do not necessarily have to pull the meter either to determine that.

I have not been there. My initial question was how PoCo could decide without looking at the main disconnect.

I have an update from the homeowner:

Found out late yesterday that the contractor was sending over his top electrician this morning. Too late to get someone else out as well. The electrician and his helper spent 90 minutes checking over everything, tightening down connections, looking at the mini-splits and their manuals, etc.

He did not find an open neutral. He said that if I had an open neutral I would have no power at all. I'm just reporting what he said, not saying whether I agree or not because I just don't have the knowledge. He did not find anything wrong with the electrical system per se. Or with the mini-split installation.

The bulb that blew out two bulbs when I tried to change it gave him no problem....


I've offered to go over but she's reluctant to ask that favor, I guess. She has another electrician coming in tomorrow err today.

 

[kwired]

I have not been there. My initial question was how PoCo could decide without looking at the main disconnect.

I have an update from the homeowner:

Found out late yesterday that the contractor was sending over his top electrician this morning. Too late to get someone else out as well. The electrician and his helper spent 90 minutes checking over everything, tightening down connections, looking at the mini-splits and their manuals, etc.

He did not find an open neutral. He said that if I had an open neutral I would have no power at all. I'm just reporting what he said, not saying whether I agree or not because I just don't have the knowledge. He did not find anything wrong with the electrical system per se. Or with the mini-split installation.

The bulb that blew out two bulbs when I tried to change it gave him no problem....


I've offered to go over but she's reluctant to ask that favor, I guess. She has another electrician coming in tomorrow err today.

POCO may or may not consider the main disconnect to be their responsibility. If they don't then why should they look at it? Depending on conditions of the install it is possible for them to connect a load that forces an unbalance and check for voltage response all without ever looking at anything beyond the load terminals of the meter. If that test passes, they have no problem from their point of introducing load all the way back to the source. They put seal back on meter and customer possibly never even knows they were there if they are not home to see them there.

 

[Bugman1400]

For overhead services, the typical reason for loss of neutral is from squirrels chewing through the conductor. This is easy to check and the POCO replaces the service wire almost always. For underground service, you don't typically have a problem with loss of the neutral. The grounding rod at the residence is a backup but, I often see the clamp beat to hell with the ground wire from the meter base dangling in the air. Obviously, with a loss of neutral, you can still have power but, an un-even load will cause un-even voltages.
I don't think the POCO is responsible for a loss of neutral that results in damaged appliances. I think they are responsible for damaged appliances in the case of a runaway regulator, failed xfmr, or a primary conductor that happens to fall onto the secondary service wire.

 

[kwired]

For overhead services, the typical reason for loss of neutral is from squirrels chewing through the conductor. This is easy to check and the POCO replaces the service wire almost always. For underground service, you don't typically have a problem with loss of the neutral. The grounding rod at the residence is a backup but, I often see the clamp beat to hell with the ground wire from the meter base dangling in the air. Obviously, with a loss of neutral, you can still have power but, an un-even load will cause un-even voltages.
I don't think the POCO is responsible for a loss of neutral that results in damaged appliances. I think they are responsible for damaged appliances in the case of a runaway regulator, failed xfmr, or a primary conductor that happens to fall onto the secondary service wire.

Only if you can prove they were negligent with maintenance and could have prevented such incident. If mother nature happens to intervene say with a thunderstorm or something like that and causes the primary to fall onto the secondary or maybe lighting causes the runaway regulator, then it is an Act of God and you will not get very far with any possible claim.

A few years back we had a nearby town have a 34.5kV line fall on a 2.4KV distribution line after a tree fell because of flood waters. Sent a surge through town and everyone connected to that phase seemed to have some damages of some sort. You would get calls from multiple customers that were all supplied from the same transformer, but the next few houses were on a transformer on a different phase and had no troubles. One house I went to had nearly every GFCI in the place stop functioning, another one across alley from it had damaged electronic controller in his range failed, and failed power supplies in computer equipment. POCO was not liable for any of this damage - it was an Act of God, homeowners insurance needed to pay for things - if they covered it.

 

[rt66electric]

New bulbs can suck

New bulbs can suck

It is entirely possible that the minisplit failed and caused a 240v momentary surge on the neutral.

In my experience poco faults cause failures in 120v appliances. very seldom is the 220 dryer, 220 A/C compressor , or waterheater or old style stoves affected.

Loss of a leg simply "turns off" any 220 load.
However even a brief 220 load on appliances that have circuit boards results in "expensive smoke"

A Phase to ground failure in a 220 compressor can put voltage on the ground wire which is connected to the neutral bar,which (BRIEFLY) puts 220 throughout half the house. The other half of the house simply stops flowing due to the fact "A" phase to "A"phase (which was previously the neutral) is at the same potential and no current flows.

Half the house is "A" to "A" .. instead of "A to N"... it has power but it doesn't flow.
The other half is "B" to "A" ... instead of " B to N"
(remember this occurs for a very brief time,,, the time it takes for a breaker to trip, or a wire to burn in half)

Incandescent bulbs are the very sensitive to vervoltage and fail easily and quickly.
I have had a few calls ... "That new light fixture that you installed is bad every time I put in a new bulb, it burns out quickly" ,, "Its YOUR fault"
I then ask what brand of bulbs and where the bought them.
Then ask them to get new diffierent brand or style of bulbs, and call me back if it does not work... Never had a second callback.

 

[JDB3]

}}Incandescent bulbs are the very sensitive to vervoltage and fail easily and quickly.
I have had a few calls ... "That new light fixture that you installed is bad every time I put in a new bulb, it burns out quickly" ,, "Its YOUR fault"
I then ask what brand of bulbs and where the bought them.
Then ask them to get new diffierent brand or style of bulbs, and call me back if it does not work... Never had a second callback. {{

Some of the same here. Cheap 120 volt bulbs burning out at a residence where the incoming was 128 volts. Bulbs burning out quick. 130 volt bulbs, no more calls.

 

[Bugman1400]

Only if you can prove they were negligent with maintenance and could have prevented such incident. If mother nature happens to intervene say with a thunderstorm or something like that and causes the primary to fall onto the secondary or maybe lighting causes the runaway regulator, then it is an Act of God and you will not get very far with any possible claim.

A few years back we had a nearby town have a 34.5kV line fall on a 2.4KV distribution line after a tree fell because of flood waters. Sent a surge through town and everyone connected to that phase seemed to have some damages of some sort. You would get calls from multiple customers that were all supplied from the same transformer, but the next few houses were on a transformer on a different phase and had no troubles. One house I went to had nearly every GFCI in the place stop functioning, another one across alley from it had damaged electronic controller in his range failed, and failed power supplies in computer equipment. POCO was not liable for any of this damage - it was an Act of God, homeowners insurance needed to pay for things - if they covered it.

I think for the most part you're right. The scenario that was stuck in my head was the time there was a video from the local news of the primary that had somehow gotten on the secondary service wire to the house and had caught the house on fire. For whatever reason, the primary never tripped out. Perhaps the fault impedance was too high for the relaying or maybe the fuse wasn't sized correctly. Anyhow, the local news was there because of the house fire and you could see the flare up of the primary voltage on the secondary service wire every 15 seconds or so.

 

[Open Neutral]

I think for the most part you're right. The scenario that was stuck in my head was the time there was a video from the local news of the primary that had somehow gotten on the secondary service wire to the house and had caught the house on fire. For whatever reason, the primary never tripped out.

In NoVa, a Verizon FIOS contractor destroyed a house's electrical system. Everything was dead; the outlets and switches were blown out of the walls. My SWAG, based on imagery on the TeeVee Gnus, was while ramming under the back yard, they'd somehow crossed the pad xfmr primary & secondary in the yard.

It made the news because Verizontal would not pay, saying "Go after the contractor we hired....not us..." which works better in some courts [Common Pleas] than others [Public Opinion....]